So your suggestion of what’s going on introduces an important divergence from what Ben and Ben have been saying (unless I missed it, in which case my apologies to them). You’re suggesting that the ad is hostile (as Ben also proposes) but that the hostility is towards non-mask-wearers and that what it’s suggesting is asshole-like is their anti-masking opinions.
This is much more plausible psychologically than what (if I understand right) Ben was proposing. Benquo described the ad as “anti-mask propaganda” and as “trying to degrade and humiliate mask-wearers”. Ben Pace suggests that the people making the ad want to degrade “the people their coalition is forcing to wear masks”. And I don’t think any of that makes psychological sense. But, yes, it’s possible that the people making please-mask ads are (consciously or not) hostile towards people who don’t want to wear masks.
I think this hypothesis is a plausible alternative to mine where they’re not trying to be hostile but intend to point up a contrast between what they say and the old joke about assholes. But it isn’t compatible with Ben’s characterization of his complaint about the ads as “complaining about anti-mask propaganda”: if you’re right then the ads are very much not anti-mask propaganda.
Right, it sounds like you mostly get what I’m saying.
I’d quibble that “the people their coalition is forcing to wear masks” are the anti-maskers (since pro-maskers are being nice and obedient, and therefore aren’t being “forced”). It’s pretty easy to slip into contempt for people not respecting your well-deserved authoritah, so that even when they start doing it you think “About fucking time!” and judge them for not doing it earlier or more enthusiastically, instead of showing gratitude for the fact that they’re moving in the right direction. I know I’ve been guilty of it in the past.
I don’t mean to imply that the people behind the ads are to be seen as shitty people, or in this light alone, and I think in the course of describing this perspective which I viewed as needing to be conveyed I may have failed to make that clear. I do actually agree with your take on what they see themselves as doing, and that it’s not entirely illegitimate.
I responded to my own comment trying to lay out better what I meant exactly by “alignment failure” and how “they’re not (meta) trying to be hostile” and “they’re trying to humiliate and degrade” aren’t actually mutually exclusive.
For what it’s worth, I didn’t take you to be asserting that the people behind the ads are shitty people (either unconditionally or conditional on your conjecture about their motives being correct).
Thanks for the feedback. To be clear, I didn’t mean that I inferred that you took it that way, just that after I finished writing I realized I was doing the “pretty critical of people for doing very normal things” thing, and that it often comes off that way if I’m not careful to credibly disclaim that interpretation.
So your suggestion of what’s going on introduces an important divergence from what Ben and Ben have been saying (unless I missed it, in which case my apologies to them). You’re suggesting that the ad is hostile (as Ben also proposes) but that the hostility is towards non-mask-wearers and that what it’s suggesting is asshole-like is their anti-masking opinions.
This is much more plausible psychologically than what (if I understand right) Ben was proposing. Benquo described the ad as “anti-mask propaganda” and as “trying to degrade and humiliate mask-wearers”. Ben Pace suggests that the people making the ad want to degrade “the people their coalition is forcing to wear masks”. And I don’t think any of that makes psychological sense. But, yes, it’s possible that the people making please-mask ads are (consciously or not) hostile towards people who don’t want to wear masks.
I think this hypothesis is a plausible alternative to mine where they’re not trying to be hostile but intend to point up a contrast between what they say and the old joke about assholes. But it isn’t compatible with Ben’s characterization of his complaint about the ads as “complaining about anti-mask propaganda”: if you’re right then the ads are very much not anti-mask propaganda.
Right, it sounds like you mostly get what I’m saying.
I’d quibble that “the people their coalition is forcing to wear masks” are the anti-maskers (since pro-maskers are being nice and obedient, and therefore aren’t being “forced”). It’s pretty easy to slip into contempt for people not respecting your well-deserved authoritah, so that even when they start doing it you think “About fucking time!” and judge them for not doing it earlier or more enthusiastically, instead of showing gratitude for the fact that they’re moving in the right direction. I know I’ve been guilty of it in the past.
I don’t mean to imply that the people behind the ads are to be seen as shitty people, or in this light alone, and I think in the course of describing this perspective which I viewed as needing to be conveyed I may have failed to make that clear. I do actually agree with your take on what they see themselves as doing, and that it’s not entirely illegitimate.
I responded to my own comment trying to lay out better what I meant exactly by “alignment failure” and how “they’re not (meta) trying to be hostile” and “they’re trying to humiliate and degrade” aren’t actually mutually exclusive.
For what it’s worth, I didn’t take you to be asserting that the people behind the ads are shitty people (either unconditionally or conditional on your conjecture about their motives being correct).
Thanks for the feedback. To be clear, I didn’t mean that I inferred that you took it that way, just that after I finished writing I realized I was doing the “pretty critical of people for doing very normal things” thing, and that it often comes off that way if I’m not careful to credibly disclaim that interpretation.