Any deity? Is there a logical connection between the idea of a deity in general, and FW.… or are you running off the shear familiarity of the Judeo-Christian god concept,
I was thinking Judeo-Christian, but my line of argument could be rephrased as a universe planned out in advance would be more likely to have free will than a completely random universe.
Because free will seems to be an extremely fragile thing. Perfectly predictable physics precludes most notions of free will, and perfectly random physics precludes most notions of predictability; there’s a very delicate balance involved in having a world predictable enough that free will matters (because you can make decisions with strong certainty as to the consequences thereof) yet unpredictable enough to permit free will at all.
At the same time, it seems to me a thing that would be desirable to include in a planned-out universe.
Because free will seems to be an extremely fragile thing.
More fragile than intelligence, etc?
Perfectly predictable physics precludes most notions of free will, and perfectly random physics precludes most notions of predictability; there’s a very delicate balance involved in having a world predictable enough that free will matters (because you can make decisions with strong certainty as to the consequences thereof) yet unpredictable enough to permit free will at all.
You seem to be assuming that free will is inherited, as it were, form the fundamental laws of physics, so that if they don’t have the exact balance required themselves, free will is impossible. It seems to me that the law of physica allow individual systems to display a wide range of behaviour, from extreme chaos to exteme determinsim, (and therefore embracing the Goldilocks zone) and that it is the systems themselves that are responsible for the fine-tuning.
ETA
Free will is not the only thing that requires fine balance. Intelligence itself does...a balance between creativity and rule-following, between over and under detection of patterns,
At the same time, it seems to me a thing that would be desirable to include in a planned-out universe.
Probably not more fragile than intelligence. I’d put it at a good deal less fragile, in fact. But reasoning based on the presence of intelligence in the universe risks falling into the anthropic trap...
You seem to be assuming that free will is inherited, as it were, form the fundamental laws of physics, so that if they don’t have the exact balance required themselves, free will is impossible.
Yes, in the sense that all behaviours of complex systems that consist entirely of atoms must be consistent with the laws governing the behaviour of atoms.
It seems to me that the law of physica allow individual systems to display a wide range of behaviour, from extreme chaos to exteme determinsim, (and therefore embracing the Goldilocks zone) and that it is the systems themselves that are responsible for the fine-tuning.
I do not claim that free will is, or even must be, an inevitable result of the fundamental laws of physics. I merely claim that, for free will to exist, the fundamental laws of physics must allow it, in the same way as the fundamental laws of physics allow intelligence.
At the same time, it seems to me a thing that would be desirable to include in a planned-out universe.
Why?
Because I can think of few other reasons to create a universe. Anything made of matter—a creator capable of creating a universe can certainly create any amount of matter. Energy? Similarly.
But a free-willed creature is of a whole nother order. We build structures of logic; we dream, we imagine, we create entire worlds in our heads and then we share them with each other… I may be suffering from a pro-human bias here, but (a) I think that’s really special, and (b) I’m having trouble coming up with a way to get that without a universe to keep the people in.
I suppose our universe could be intended as some sort of work of art, like a sort of four-dimensional sculpture, designed to appeal to aesthetic senses so much more all-encompassing than our own limited viewpoints...
Probably not more fragile than intelligence. I’d put it at a good deal less fragile, in fact. But reasoning based on the presence of intelligence in the universe risks falling into the anthropic trap...
Which trap? Of thinking that something is likely just because we are in a place where it has occurred ?
You seem to be assuming that free will is inherited, as it were, form the fundamental laws of physics, so that if they don’t have the exact balance required themselves, free will is impossible.
Yes, in the sense that all behaviours of complex systems that consist entirely of atoms must be consistent with the laws governing the behaviour of atoms
Which? What occurs physically must not contradict the laws of physics, but that is weaker claim than saying the laws of physics must be specifically fine tuned for it.
I do not claim that free will is, or even must be, an inevitable result of the fundamental laws of physics
But the alternative does not give you such a strong argument that FW is unlikely.
Because I can think of few other reasons to create a universe
Meaning other reasons wouldn’t motivate you if you you were God, or wouldn’t motuvate a God like you, an anthropomorphic God … but a deity only reduces the unlikelihood of FW if it us likely, and likely to create FW. But the cultural famiarity of anthropomorphic deities is not objective probability.
Which trap? Of thinking that something is likely just because we are in a place where it has occurred ?
The anthropic trap is the trap of thinking that something is likely when it cannot be observed if it has not occurred. So, for example, I do think it is likely that alternate universes will have stars, because stars can exist independently of the presence of observers; but I’m not so sure about intelligent life, because if there were no intelligence, what would observe it?
Which? What occurs physically must not contradict the laws of physics, but that is weaker claim than saying the laws of physics must be specifically fine tuned for it.
My claim is that what occurs physically must not contradict the laws of physics. Yes, this is a weaker claim. Yes, this does not give me as strong an argument as the other claim, but I can’t support the other claim.
Meaning other reasons wouldn’t motivate you if you you were God, or wouldn’t motuvate a God like you, an anthropomorphic God …
...hmmmm. Good point. I have very little reason to assume that God’s reasoning even approaches anything vaguely humanlike in any manner.
Any deity? Is there a logical connection between the idea of a deity in general, and FW.… or are you running off the shear familiarity of the Judeo-Christian god concept,
I was thinking Judeo-Christian, but my line of argument could be rephrased as a universe planned out in advance would be more likely to have free will than a completely random universe.
Why?
Because free will seems to be an extremely fragile thing. Perfectly predictable physics precludes most notions of free will, and perfectly random physics precludes most notions of predictability; there’s a very delicate balance involved in having a world predictable enough that free will matters (because you can make decisions with strong certainty as to the consequences thereof) yet unpredictable enough to permit free will at all.
At the same time, it seems to me a thing that would be desirable to include in a planned-out universe.
More fragile than intelligence, etc?
You seem to be assuming that free will is inherited, as it were, form the fundamental laws of physics, so that if they don’t have the exact balance required themselves, free will is impossible. It seems to me that the law of physica allow individual systems to display a wide range of behaviour, from extreme chaos to exteme determinsim, (and therefore embracing the Goldilocks zone) and that it is the systems themselves that are responsible for the fine-tuning.
ETA Free will is not the only thing that requires fine balance. Intelligence itself does...a balance between creativity and rule-following, between over and under detection of patterns,
Why?
Probably not more fragile than intelligence. I’d put it at a good deal less fragile, in fact. But reasoning based on the presence of intelligence in the universe risks falling into the anthropic trap...
Yes, in the sense that all behaviours of complex systems that consist entirely of atoms must be consistent with the laws governing the behaviour of atoms.
I do not claim that free will is, or even must be, an inevitable result of the fundamental laws of physics. I merely claim that, for free will to exist, the fundamental laws of physics must allow it, in the same way as the fundamental laws of physics allow intelligence.
Because I can think of few other reasons to create a universe. Anything made of matter—a creator capable of creating a universe can certainly create any amount of matter. Energy? Similarly.
But a free-willed creature is of a whole nother order. We build structures of logic; we dream, we imagine, we create entire worlds in our heads and then we share them with each other… I may be suffering from a pro-human bias here, but (a) I think that’s really special, and (b) I’m having trouble coming up with a way to get that without a universe to keep the people in.
I suppose our universe could be intended as some sort of work of art, like a sort of four-dimensional sculpture, designed to appeal to aesthetic senses so much more all-encompassing than our own limited viewpoints...
Which trap? Of thinking that something is likely just because we are in a place where it has occurred ?
Which? What occurs physically must not contradict the laws of physics, but that is weaker claim than saying the laws of physics must be specifically fine tuned for it.
But the alternative does not give you such a strong argument that FW is unlikely.
Meaning other reasons wouldn’t motivate you if you you were God, or wouldn’t motuvate a God like you, an anthropomorphic God … but a deity only reduces the unlikelihood of FW if it us likely, and likely to create FW. But the cultural famiarity of anthropomorphic deities is not objective probability.
The anthropic trap is the trap of thinking that something is likely when it cannot be observed if it has not occurred. So, for example, I do think it is likely that alternate universes will have stars, because stars can exist independently of the presence of observers; but I’m not so sure about intelligent life, because if there were no intelligence, what would observe it?
My claim is that what occurs physically must not contradict the laws of physics. Yes, this is a weaker claim. Yes, this does not give me as strong an argument as the other claim, but I can’t support the other claim.
...hmmmm. Good point. I have very little reason to assume that God’s reasoning even approaches anything vaguely humanlike in any manner.