There’s no empiric test or observable property that tells you whether someone or something has free will.
That statement seems (currently) true enough; presumably if we could execute a free will test, someone would have done it by now and there would be no need for these debates.
You compare free will with “souls, the afterlife, spirits, gods, the underworld, sympathetic magic, witchcraft, the evil eye...”. It seems to me that the notion of free will is actually more similar to the notion of consciousness than it is to those things that you list. Pretty much everyone is under the impression that he or she is conscious, and yet we can’t really empirically test for consciousness. Both consciousness and free will seem like useful concepts that most people perceive and experience even though we can’t empirically test for them and we may lack rigorous, universally agreed upon definitions for them.
Do you believe that consciousness is a phenomenon? If so, then what empiric test or observable property would you use to determine whether something (e.g. an artificially intelligent computing system) is conscious?
Both consciousness and free will seem like useful concepts that most people perceive and experience even though we can’t empirically test for them and we may lack rigorous, universally agreed upon definitions for them.
They are useful concepts exactly and only because they are such strong and common intuitions people have, so we have to use these concepts to model other people’s beliefs and behavior. In the same way that an atheist needs to understand religion.
Do you believe that consciousness is a phenomenon?
Different people use very different, often contradictory definitions of ‘consciousness’. Some are obviously true (for humans): for example “a system that models itself as part of the world and understands that its outputs determine the behavior of that part”. Some are by definition empirically untestable: “conscious entities experience events but do not affect them, and some things (people) have such conscious entities attached, while others (simple animals) don’t”, a la p-zombies, or for example “I know I have qualia but I can’t know if others do”, similar to solipsism.
In general, I think there is no “study of consciousness” (as there would be of a phenomenon); there is, however, a lot of study of the way people use the word “consciousness”, which involves psychology, sociology/culture, linguistics, neurology, and so forth. And the same is true for “free will”.
In general, I think there is no “study of consciousness”
There is a study of consciousness, or at least aspects of consciousness, as anyone can discover via google, and it is not just a study of the way people use the word.
Anaesthesiologists study consciousness, meaning awareness of the environment and ability to form memories, as something that can be switched on and off. Cognitive psychologists study access consciousness, the ability to make verbal reports about some of what is going on in your head. Perceptual psychologists study phenomenal consciousness, blind spots, blind sight, synaesthesia, and so on.
Now, maybe you could answer my questions: why didn’t you know the above, why didn’t say you research it, and why you think it is a good idea to make armchair pronouncements abut what science can do?
These are all good and useful fields of study, but crucially, they’re using the word “consciousness” to mean something different from what was under discussion here, which I did my best to point out.
This subthread started with the g_pepper saying:
Pretty much everyone is under the impression that he or she is conscious, and yet we can’t really empirically test for consciousness. Both consciousness and free will seem like useful concepts that most people perceive and experience even though we can’t empirically test for them and we may lack rigorous, universally agreed upon definitions for them.
Clearly, whatever is being talked about here doesn’t belong to one of the fields of study you mentioned. In none of those fields does the statement that “we can’t [ever] empirically test for consciousness” make sense—obviously we can test if a person (or other system) is forming memories, is able to make verbal reports, has blind spots, etc. We don’t need to rely on people’s own impressions of being conscious, either.
This is “consciousness” in the vernacular (and philosophical) sense, closely related to sentience: the possession of a subjective experience. It’s a confused concept, which doesn’t admit empirical study, just like souls or dualist free will don’t. But people’s belief in, and beliefs about, the concept can be studied.
why you think it is a good idea to make armchair pronouncements abut what science can do?
I never said science can’t do something.
The tone of your reply seems aggressive. What did I say that you found offensive?
In general there is a study of consciousness, but there is not a study of some specific aspects, theories and definitions.
This is “consciousness” in the vernacular (and philosophical) sense, closely related to sentience: the possession of a subjective experience.
Subjective experience can be studied up to a point, eg synaesthesia. The studies tend to assume that subjects have experiences an are report them accurately....n other words, the assume the non zombie hood of the subjects. Zombiehood isn’t testable, but is a specific theory of consciousness, not “consciousness”.
In general there is a study of consciousness, but there is not a study of some specific aspects, theories and definitions.
In other words: there is study of some definitions (or referents) of “consciousness”, and not of others, and the one that was used originally in this thread isn’t studied.
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘in general’ here, but I think that might be semantics and not any concrete difference of opinion between us.
This is “consciousness” in the vernacular (and philosophical) sense, closely related to sentience: the possession of a subjective experience. It’s a confused concept, which doesn’t admit empirical study, just like souls or dualist free will don’t.
And yet I know that I possess a subjective experience, and I suspect that you do to. Just because something does not currently lend itself to quantitative scientific study does not mean that it is not real.
ETA:
It’s a confused concept, which doesn’t admit empirical study, just like souls or dualist free will don’t.
Note that much of the discussion of free will in this comments section has had nothing to do with souls or dualist free will; e.g. compatibilism has nothing to do with souls or dualism.
And yet I know that I possess a subjective experience, and I suspect that you do to. Just because something does not currently lend itself to quantitative scientific study does not mean that it is not real.
(Edited) That’s true, but it doesn’t necessarily contradict what I said. Subjective experience is real—we all have it. Being real, it can be studied. But I strongly expect that whatever the study produces won’t e.g. let us tell if a non-human is conscious (has subjective experience) except by arbitrary definitions that ultimately rely on being-similar-to-humans.
Note that much of the discussion of free will in this comments section has had nothing to do with souls or dualist free will; e.g. compatibilism has nothing to do with souls or dualism.
That’s true, which is why I specified dualist free will.
Pretty much everyone is under the impression that he or she is conscious, and yet we can’t really empirically test for consciousness.
If contentiousness doesn’t exist how can we empirically test for anything? Empiricism is based on using past observations to predict future observations, it becomes meaningless if there’s nothing there to do the observing.
That statement seems (currently) true enough; presumably if we could execute a free will test, someone would have done it by now and there would be no need for these debates.
You compare free will with “souls, the afterlife, spirits, gods, the underworld, sympathetic magic, witchcraft, the evil eye...”. It seems to me that the notion of free will is actually more similar to the notion of consciousness than it is to those things that you list. Pretty much everyone is under the impression that he or she is conscious, and yet we can’t really empirically test for consciousness. Both consciousness and free will seem like useful concepts that most people perceive and experience even though we can’t empirically test for them and we may lack rigorous, universally agreed upon definitions for them.
Do you believe that consciousness is a phenomenon? If so, then what empiric test or observable property would you use to determine whether something (e.g. an artificially intelligent computing system) is conscious?
They are useful concepts exactly and only because they are such strong and common intuitions people have, so we have to use these concepts to model other people’s beliefs and behavior. In the same way that an atheist needs to understand religion.
Different people use very different, often contradictory definitions of ‘consciousness’. Some are obviously true (for humans): for example “a system that models itself as part of the world and understands that its outputs determine the behavior of that part”. Some are by definition empirically untestable: “conscious entities experience events but do not affect them, and some things (people) have such conscious entities attached, while others (simple animals) don’t”, a la p-zombies, or for example “I know I have qualia but I can’t know if others do”, similar to solipsism.
In general, I think there is no “study of consciousness” (as there would be of a phenomenon); there is, however, a lot of study of the way people use the word “consciousness”, which involves psychology, sociology/culture, linguistics, neurology, and so forth. And the same is true for “free will”.
There is a study of consciousness, or at least aspects of consciousness, as anyone can discover via google, and it is not just a study of the way people use the word.
A study of “consciousness” under which definition?
Anaesthesiologists study consciousness, meaning awareness of the environment and ability to form memories, as something that can be switched on and off. Cognitive psychologists study access consciousness, the ability to make verbal reports about some of what is going on in your head. Perceptual psychologists study phenomenal consciousness, blind spots, blind sight, synaesthesia, and so on.
Now, maybe you could answer my questions: why didn’t you know the above, why didn’t say you research it, and why you think it is a good idea to make armchair pronouncements abut what science can do?
These are all good and useful fields of study, but crucially, they’re using the word “consciousness” to mean something different from what was under discussion here, which I did my best to point out.
This subthread started with the g_pepper saying:
Clearly, whatever is being talked about here doesn’t belong to one of the fields of study you mentioned. In none of those fields does the statement that “we can’t [ever] empirically test for consciousness” make sense—obviously we can test if a person (or other system) is forming memories, is able to make verbal reports, has blind spots, etc. We don’t need to rely on people’s own impressions of being conscious, either.
This is “consciousness” in the vernacular (and philosophical) sense, closely related to sentience: the possession of a subjective experience. It’s a confused concept, which doesn’t admit empirical study, just like souls or dualist free will don’t. But people’s belief in, and beliefs about, the concept can be studied.
I never said science can’t do something.
The tone of your reply seems aggressive. What did I say that you found offensive?
In general there is a study of consciousness, but there is not a study of some specific aspects, theories and definitions.
Subjective experience can be studied up to a point, eg synaesthesia. The studies tend to assume that subjects have experiences an are report them accurately....n other words, the assume the non zombie hood of the subjects. Zombiehood isn’t testable, but is a specific theory of consciousness, not “consciousness”.
In other words: there is study of some definitions (or referents) of “consciousness”, and not of others, and the one that was used originally in this thread isn’t studied.
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘in general’ here, but I think that might be semantics and not any concrete difference of opinion between us.
And yet I know that I possess a subjective experience, and I suspect that you do to. Just because something does not currently lend itself to quantitative scientific study does not mean that it is not real.
ETA:
Note that much of the discussion of free will in this comments section has had nothing to do with souls or dualist free will; e.g. compatibilism has nothing to do with souls or dualism.
(Edited) That’s true, but it doesn’t necessarily contradict what I said. Subjective experience is real—we all have it. Being real, it can be studied. But I strongly expect that whatever the study produces won’t e.g. let us tell if a non-human is conscious (has subjective experience) except by arbitrary definitions that ultimately rely on being-similar-to-humans.
That’s true, which is why I specified dualist free will.
If contentiousness doesn’t exist how can we empirically test for anything? Empiricism is based on using past observations to predict future observations, it becomes meaningless if there’s nothing there to do the observing.