I say to you “I saw the ghost of my dead grandmother”. You say “No, you didn’t”.
I wouldn’t say that. I would say, “I believe that you think you saw the ghost of your dead grandmother. And it’s not entirely out of the question that it was in fact the ghost of your dead grandmother. But I think it’s more likely that there’s some other explanation.”
And actually, I probably wouldn’t even say that. I would probably say, “I’m sorry your grandmother is dead. She must have meant a lot to you.”
I’m not convinced that skeptics are under any sort of obligation to want that.
“Obligation” is an odd word to use here. If you believe that having a more complete model and accurate model of the world is a good thing, then it seems to me that it follows logically that having a better model of why some people believe the things they do is a good thing. Does that constitute an “obligation”? I don’t know, but I don’t want to quibble over terminology.
no experience could actually give all that much evidence for the things that some believers infer from their experiences
If prayer’s to a particular god were answered more often than prayers to some other god, that would be pretty convincing evidence (at least to me) that that god existed and the others didn’t. Many religious claims are in fact falsifiable (and falsified) theories.
if, for whatever reason, the question actually at issue is whether our universe was created by a superbeing of vast power and goodness, or whether men who have sex with other men should be stoned to death
Oh, yes, of course. I’m not suggesting that we disarm against the fundamentalist wackos. What I’m suggesting is that some people who profess to believe in God are actually our (non-believers) intellectual allies in many other matters, and so having a better theory of how that happens (or, at the very least, employing less inflammatory rhetoric towards them) might make the world a better place for everyone. That’s all.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough: the “you” and “I” there were so called just for convenience. I wouldn’t say the things “I” say in that paragraph, either. (And, for the avoidance of doubt, I agree that both the answers you say you might give are better than a flat “No, you didn’t”. Of course.)
“Obligation” is an odd word to use here. [...] I don’t want to quibble over terminology.
Well, the whole point of what you’ve been saying here seems to be that skeptics who argue against religious beliefs are (or at least many of them are) doing something wrong, that instead of arguing over religious beliefs they should be empathizing with religious experiences or something like that.
I agree that understanding things is better than not understanding them. But understanding any specific thing is not always a high priority.
If prayers to a particular god were answered more often than prayers to some other god, that would be pretty convincing evidence [...]
Of course. Perhaps I was unclear: I didn’t mean “nothing that could possibly happen would constitute strong evidence”, I meant “no purely internal religious experience would constitute strong evidence”. (With the proviso I stated, of course.) In other words, the sort of “experience” that I thought this whole discussion was about.
fundamentalist wackos
Plenty of people who are not in any useful sense fundamentalist wackos believe that the world was created by a superbeing of vast power and goodness. And while wanting gay people stoned to death is probably in wacko-only territory, there are plenty of non-wackos who want gay people not to be allowed to marry one another for reasons that are ultimately pretty similar to the wackos’ reasons.
some people who profess to believe in God are actually [...] allies in many other matters
Yup, absolutely true. I don’t think this is as little understood as I think you think it is.
less inflammatory rhetoric
If all you’re saying is that in many contexts it is better not to insist on talking about sky fairies and telling religious people they’re crazy—why, yes, I agree. And, again, my impression is that most people here do too.
Although LW is on the whole a pretty unreligious place, there are active members here who are religious believers, and I don’t think they get abused for it. And from time to time someone comes along and says, more or less, “hi, I’m a believer but sympathetic to rationalism; can we talk?” and the responses mostly seem pretty respectful and polite to me. See, e.g., this post from a believer leaning towards agnosticism and wanting thoughts on miracles, though of course the “I might deconvert” framing may have made people nicer.
Well, my OP was not written specifically for LW, and it’s possible that posting it here was not appropriate, at least not without some significant revisions. If so, I apologize. I’ll try to do better next time.
Oh, sorry, my mistake.
I wouldn’t say that. I would say, “I believe that you think you saw the ghost of your dead grandmother. And it’s not entirely out of the question that it was in fact the ghost of your dead grandmother. But I think it’s more likely that there’s some other explanation.”
And actually, I probably wouldn’t even say that. I would probably say, “I’m sorry your grandmother is dead. She must have meant a lot to you.”
“Obligation” is an odd word to use here. If you believe that having a more complete model and accurate model of the world is a good thing, then it seems to me that it follows logically that having a better model of why some people believe the things they do is a good thing. Does that constitute an “obligation”? I don’t know, but I don’t want to quibble over terminology.
If prayer’s to a particular god were answered more often than prayers to some other god, that would be pretty convincing evidence (at least to me) that that god existed and the others didn’t. Many religious claims are in fact falsifiable (and falsified) theories.
Oh, yes, of course. I’m not suggesting that we disarm against the fundamentalist wackos. What I’m suggesting is that some people who profess to believe in God are actually our (non-believers) intellectual allies in many other matters, and so having a better theory of how that happens (or, at the very least, employing less inflammatory rhetoric towards them) might make the world a better place for everyone. That’s all.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough: the “you” and “I” there were so called just for convenience. I wouldn’t say the things “I” say in that paragraph, either. (And, for the avoidance of doubt, I agree that both the answers you say you might give are better than a flat “No, you didn’t”. Of course.)
Well, the whole point of what you’ve been saying here seems to be that skeptics who argue against religious beliefs are (or at least many of them are) doing something wrong, that instead of arguing over religious beliefs they should be empathizing with religious experiences or something like that.
I agree that understanding things is better than not understanding them. But understanding any specific thing is not always a high priority.
Of course. Perhaps I was unclear: I didn’t mean “nothing that could possibly happen would constitute strong evidence”, I meant “no purely internal religious experience would constitute strong evidence”. (With the proviso I stated, of course.) In other words, the sort of “experience” that I thought this whole discussion was about.
Plenty of people who are not in any useful sense fundamentalist wackos believe that the world was created by a superbeing of vast power and goodness. And while wanting gay people stoned to death is probably in wacko-only territory, there are plenty of non-wackos who want gay people not to be allowed to marry one another for reasons that are ultimately pretty similar to the wackos’ reasons.
Yup, absolutely true. I don’t think this is as little understood as I think you think it is.
If all you’re saying is that in many contexts it is better not to insist on talking about sky fairies and telling religious people they’re crazy—why, yes, I agree. And, again, my impression is that most people here do too.
Although LW is on the whole a pretty unreligious place, there are active members here who are religious believers, and I don’t think they get abused for it. And from time to time someone comes along and says, more or less, “hi, I’m a believer but sympathetic to rationalism; can we talk?” and the responses mostly seem pretty respectful and polite to me. See, e.g., this post from a believer leaning towards agnosticism and wanting thoughts on miracles, though of course the “I might deconvert” framing may have made people nicer.
Well, my OP was not written specifically for LW, and it’s possible that posting it here was not appropriate, at least not without some significant revisions. If so, I apologize. I’ll try to do better next time.