colors may not be “real”, even if the experience of colors is.
Yes, that is the whole point. The experience of God may be real even if God isn’t.
Also, the reason I didn’t choose sheet music as my analogy is that the information content of sheet music is different from the actual music. To get from sheet music to music you have to add information (in the information-theoretical sense) like the waveforms of the individual instruments. That is not the case with the grooves on a record. They contain all of the same information as the audio waveform, but simply rendered in space rather than in time.
The experience of God may be real [like that of color is] even if God isn’t.
The difference here is that there is something in the environment that causes the experience of color to appear consistently in many, many human minds. We can measure the waves that could enter the eye and trigger the “color” experience. The same cannot be said of God. “Spiritual” seems likely to be the best word to name the experience you have described. Religion need not be involved at any level.
More simply, I’m sure these experiences exist. But there is good reason not to name the experience God. That word, and the set of words it often stands for, is far too laden with other meanings and contexts to be a helpful label in this context.
...the information content of sheet music is different from the actual music...
The information on sheet music is compressed, but an individual trained to read it can, with practice, decompress all of it into an experience of the composition. Ask any orchestra conductor of sufficient experience what that is like. Some conductors even prefer to experience the music that way; they find that the orchestra can get in the way of experiencing what the composer intended. That is, in fact, the job of a conductor.
The phonograph record, on the other hand, is a representation of a single performance of a composition, interpreted by the conductor and the orchestra. And the point stands that a phonograph record cannot be read by (nearly all) humans. It is not analogous to the text of a book, it is analogous to the medium (tape, CD, MP3, &c.) on which the audiobook is recorded.
For that matter, the audiobook holds the same “additional information” as the recorded symphony: that added by the performer(s) translating the text/music into sound.
The difference here is that there is something in the environment that causes the experience of color to appear consistently in many, many human minds. We can measure the waves that could enter the eye and trigger the “color” experience. The same cannot be said of God.
That’s not necessarily true. It’s possible that we could find the mechanism in the brain which is responsible for spiritual experiences. But that’s kind of missing the point. Most human interactions don’t drill down this deep. Even rational people have conversation that go, “Did you see that cool fnorble?” “Yeah, wasn’t that awesome?” without citing the peer-reviewed academic literature that establishes the objective existence and material properties of fnorbles. Religious people do the same: they say, “Did you feel the presence of the holy spirit?” “Yeah, I did, wasn’t that awesome?”
The information on sheet music is compressed, but an individual trained to read it can, with practice, decompress all of it into an experience of the composition.
Sure, but such people are rare. You can probably also train yourself to have spiritual experiences.
a phonograph record cannot be read by (nearly all) humans
Fine, how about this then: display the audio waveform on an oscilloscope. The point is that having music come into your years is a fundamentally different subjective experience than having it come in to your eyes even if the information content is the same in both cases.
I think the crux here is to avoid arguing against people’s experiences when trying to raise the sanity waterline. If one argues against their deep experiences, there’s a big danger of the backfire effect. If one acknowledges the experience of God as something real, but delineates that from proof of an actual God existing, this may go further with religious people.
Yes, that is the whole point. The experience of God may be real even if God isn’t.
Also, the reason I didn’t choose sheet music as my analogy is that the information content of sheet music is different from the actual music. To get from sheet music to music you have to add information (in the information-theoretical sense) like the waveforms of the individual instruments. That is not the case with the grooves on a record. They contain all of the same information as the audio waveform, but simply rendered in space rather than in time.
The difference here is that there is something in the environment that causes the experience of color to appear consistently in many, many human minds. We can measure the waves that could enter the eye and trigger the “color” experience. The same cannot be said of God. “Spiritual” seems likely to be the best word to name the experience you have described. Religion need not be involved at any level. More simply, I’m sure these experiences exist. But there is good reason not to name the experience God. That word, and the set of words it often stands for, is far too laden with other meanings and contexts to be a helpful label in this context.
The information on sheet music is compressed, but an individual trained to read it can, with practice, decompress all of it into an experience of the composition. Ask any orchestra conductor of sufficient experience what that is like. Some conductors even prefer to experience the music that way; they find that the orchestra can get in the way of experiencing what the composer intended. That is, in fact, the job of a conductor. The phonograph record, on the other hand, is a representation of a single performance of a composition, interpreted by the conductor and the orchestra. And the point stands that a phonograph record cannot be read by (nearly all) humans. It is not analogous to the text of a book, it is analogous to the medium (tape, CD, MP3, &c.) on which the audiobook is recorded.
For that matter, the audiobook holds the same “additional information” as the recorded symphony: that added by the performer(s) translating the text/music into sound.
That’s not necessarily true. It’s possible that we could find the mechanism in the brain which is responsible for spiritual experiences. But that’s kind of missing the point. Most human interactions don’t drill down this deep. Even rational people have conversation that go, “Did you see that cool fnorble?” “Yeah, wasn’t that awesome?” without citing the peer-reviewed academic literature that establishes the objective existence and material properties of fnorbles. Religious people do the same: they say, “Did you feel the presence of the holy spirit?” “Yeah, I did, wasn’t that awesome?”
Sure, but such people are rare. You can probably also train yourself to have spiritual experiences.
Fine, how about this then: display the audio waveform on an oscilloscope. The point is that having music come into your years is a fundamentally different subjective experience than having it come in to your eyes even if the information content is the same in both cases.
I think the crux here is to avoid arguing against people’s experiences when trying to raise the sanity waterline. If one argues against their deep experiences, there’s a big danger of the backfire effect. If one acknowledges the experience of God as something real, but delineates that from proof of an actual God existing, this may go further with religious people.