“”it turned out this way, so I guess it had to be this way” doesn’t resolve my confusion”
Sorry, I mixed the position I hold (that they maybe work like bosons) and the position I was trying to argue for, which was an argument in favor of confusion.
I can’t prove (or even strongly motivate) my “the imaginary mind-swap procedure works like a swap of indistinguishable bosons” assumption, but, as far as I know no one arguing for Anthropic arguments can prove (or strongly motivate) the inverse position—which is essential for many of these arguments to work. I agree with you that we don’t have a standard model of minds, and without such a model the Doomsday Argument, and the related problem of being cosmically early might not be problems at all.
Interestingly, I don’t think the weird boson argument actually does anything for worries about whether we are simulations, or Boltzmann brains—those fears (I think) survive intact.
no one arguing for Anthropic arguments can prove (or strongly motivate) the inverse position [that minds don’t work like indistinguishable bosons]
And I can’t prove there isn’t a teapot circling Mars. It is a very strange default or prior, that two things that look distinct, would act like numerically or logically indistinguishable entities.
The teapot comparison (to me) seems to be a bad. I got carried away and wrote a wall of text. Feel free to ignore it!
First, lets think about normal probabilities in everyday life. Sometimes there are more ways for one state to come about that another state, for example if I shuffle a deck of cards the number of orderings that look random is much larger than the number of ways (1) of the cards being exactly in order.
However, this manner of thinking only applies to certain kinds of thing—those that are in-principle distinguishable. If you have a deck of blank cards, there is only one possible order, BBBBBB.… To take another example, an electronic bank account might display a total balance of $100. How many different ways are their for that $100 to be “arranged” in that bank account? The same number as 100 coins labelled “1″ through “100”? No, of course not. Its just an integer stored on a computer, and their is only one way of picking out the integer 100. The surprising examples of this come from quantum physics, where photons act more like the bank account, where their is only 1 way of a particular mode to contain 100 indistinguishable photons. We don’t need to understand the standard model for this, even if we didn’t have any quantum theory at all we could still observe these Boson statistics in experiments.
So now, we encounter anthropic arguments like Doomsday. These arguments are essentially positing a distribution, where we take the exact same physical universe and its entire physical history from beginning to end, U (which includes every atom, every synapse firing and so on). We then look at all of the “counting minds” in that universe (people count, ants probably don’t, aliens, who knows), and we create a whole slew of “subjective universes”, U1 , U2, U3, U4, etc, where each of of them is atomically identical to the original U but “I” am born as a different one of those minds (I think these are sometimes called “centred worlds”). We assume that all of these subjective universes were, in the first place, equally likely, and we start finding it a really weird coincidence that in the one we find ourselves in we are a human (instead of an Ant), or that we are early in history. This is, as I understand it, The Argument. You can phrase it without explicitly mentioning the different Us, by saying “if there are trillions of people in the future, the chances of me being born in the present are very low. So, the fact I was born now should update me away from believing there will be trillions of people in the future”. - but the Us are still doing all the work in the background.
The conclusion depends on treating all those different subscripted Us as distinguishable, like we would for cards that had symbols printed on them. But, if all the cards in the deck are identical there is only one sequence possible. I believe that all of the U1 , U2, U3, U4’s etc are identical in this manner. By assumption they are atomically identical at all times in history, they differ only by which one of the thinking apes gets assigned the arbitrary label “me”—which isn’t physically represented in any particle. You think they look different, and if we accept that we can indeed make these arguments, but if you think they are merely different descriptions of the same exact thing then the Doomsday argument no longer makes sense, and possibly some other anthropic arguments also fall apart. I don’t think they do look different, if every “I” in the universe suddenly swapped places—but leaving all memories and personality behind in the physical synapses etc, then, how would I even know it? I would be a cyborg fighting in WWXIV and would have no memories of ever being some puny human typing on a web forum in the 21s Cent. Instead of imaging that I was born as someone else I could imagine that I could wake up as someone else, and in any case I wouldn’t know any different.
So, at least to me, it looks like the anthropic arguments are advancing the idea of this orbital teapot (the different scripted Us, although it is, in fairness, a very conceptually plausible teapot). There are, to me, three possible responses:
1 - This set of different worlds doesn’t logically exist. You could push this for this response by arguing “I couldn’t have been anyone but me, by definition.” [Reject the premise entirely—there is no teapot]
2 - This set of different worlds does logically make sense, and after accepting it I see that it is a suspicious coincidence I am so early in history and I should worry about that. [accept the argument—there is a ceramic teapot orbiting Mars]
3 - This set of different worlds does logically make sense, but they should be treated like indistinguishable particles, blank playing cards or bank balances. [accept the core premise, but question its details in a way that rejects the conclusion—there is a teapot, but its chocolate, not ceramic.].
So, my point (after all that, Sorry!) is that I don’t see any reason why (2) is more convincing that (3).
[For me personally, I don’t like (1) because I think it does badly in cases where I get replicated in the future (eg sleeping beauty problems, or mind uploads or whatever). I reject (2) because the end result of accepting it is that I can infer information through evidence that is not causally linked to the information I gain (eg. I discover that the historical human population was much bigger than previously reported, and as a result I conclude the apocalypse is further in the future than I previously supposed). This leads me to thinking (3) seems right-ish, although I readily admit to being unsure about all this.].
Other Ant-worriers are out there!
“”it turned out this way, so I guess it had to be this way” doesn’t resolve my confusion”
Sorry, I mixed the position I hold (that they maybe work like bosons) and the position I was trying to argue for, which was an argument in favor of confusion.
I can’t prove (or even strongly motivate) my “the imaginary mind-swap procedure works like a swap of indistinguishable bosons” assumption, but, as far as I know no one arguing for Anthropic arguments can prove (or strongly motivate) the inverse position—which is essential for many of these arguments to work. I agree with you that we don’t have a standard model of minds, and without such a model the Doomsday Argument, and the related problem of being cosmically early might not be problems at all.
Interestingly, I don’t think the weird boson argument actually does anything for worries about whether we are simulations, or Boltzmann brains—those fears (I think) survive intact.
And I can’t prove there isn’t a teapot circling Mars. It is a very strange default or prior, that two things that look distinct, would act like numerically or logically indistinguishable entities.
The teapot comparison (to me) seems to be a bad. I got carried away and wrote a wall of text. Feel free to ignore it!
First, lets think about normal probabilities in everyday life. Sometimes there are more ways for one state to come about that another state, for example if I shuffle a deck of cards the number of orderings that look random is much larger than the number of ways (1) of the cards being exactly in order.
However, this manner of thinking only applies to certain kinds of thing—those that are in-principle distinguishable. If you have a deck of blank cards, there is only one possible order, BBBBBB.… To take another example, an electronic bank account might display a total balance of $100. How many different ways are their for that $100 to be “arranged” in that bank account? The same number as 100 coins labelled “1″ through “100”? No, of course not. Its just an integer stored on a computer, and their is only one way of picking out the integer 100. The surprising examples of this come from quantum physics, where photons act more like the bank account, where their is only 1 way of a particular mode to contain 100 indistinguishable photons. We don’t need to understand the standard model for this, even if we didn’t have any quantum theory at all we could still observe these Boson statistics in experiments.
So now, we encounter anthropic arguments like Doomsday. These arguments are essentially positing a distribution, where we take the exact same physical universe and its entire physical history from beginning to end, U (which includes every atom, every synapse firing and so on). We then look at all of the “counting minds” in that universe (people count, ants probably don’t, aliens, who knows), and we create a whole slew of “subjective universes”, U1 , U2, U3, U4, etc, where each of of them is atomically identical to the original U but “I” am born as a different one of those minds (I think these are sometimes called “centred worlds”). We assume that all of these subjective universes were, in the first place, equally likely, and we start finding it a really weird coincidence that in the one we find ourselves in we are a human (instead of an Ant), or that we are early in history. This is, as I understand it, The Argument. You can phrase it without explicitly mentioning the different Us, by saying “if there are trillions of people in the future, the chances of me being born in the present are very low. So, the fact I was born now should update me away from believing there will be trillions of people in the future”. - but the Us are still doing all the work in the background.
The conclusion depends on treating all those different subscripted Us as distinguishable, like we would for cards that had symbols printed on them. But, if all the cards in the deck are identical there is only one sequence possible. I believe that all of the U1 , U2, U3, U4’s etc are identical in this manner. By assumption they are atomically identical at all times in history, they differ only by which one of the thinking apes gets assigned the arbitrary label “me”—which isn’t physically represented in any particle. You think they look different, and if we accept that we can indeed make these arguments, but if you think they are merely different descriptions of the same exact thing then the Doomsday argument no longer makes sense, and possibly some other anthropic arguments also fall apart. I don’t think they do look different, if every “I” in the universe suddenly swapped places—but leaving all memories and personality behind in the physical synapses etc, then, how would I even know it? I would be a cyborg fighting in WWXIV and would have no memories of ever being some puny human typing on a web forum in the 21s Cent. Instead of imaging that I was born as someone else I could imagine that I could wake up as someone else, and in any case I wouldn’t know any different.
So, at least to me, it looks like the anthropic arguments are advancing the idea of this orbital teapot (the different scripted Us, although it is, in fairness, a very conceptually plausible teapot). There are, to me, three possible responses:
1 - This set of different worlds doesn’t logically exist. You could push this for this response by arguing “I couldn’t have been anyone but me, by definition.” [Reject the premise entirely—there is no teapot]
2 - This set of different worlds does logically make sense, and after accepting it I see that it is a suspicious coincidence I am so early in history and I should worry about that. [accept the argument—there is a ceramic teapot orbiting Mars]
3 - This set of different worlds does logically make sense, but they should be treated like indistinguishable particles, blank playing cards or bank balances. [accept the core premise, but question its details in a way that rejects the conclusion—there is a teapot, but its chocolate, not ceramic.].
So, my point (after all that, Sorry!) is that I don’t see any reason why (2) is more convincing that (3).
[For me personally, I don’t like (1) because I think it does badly in cases where I get replicated in the future (eg sleeping beauty problems, or mind uploads or whatever). I reject (2) because the end result of accepting it is that I can infer information through evidence that is not causally linked to the information I gain (eg. I discover that the historical human population was much bigger than previously reported, and as a result I conclude the apocalypse is further in the future than I previously supposed). This leads me to thinking (3) seems right-ish, although I readily admit to being unsure about all this.].