I am not aware of any systematic attempt to study these things. My own opinion is formed from a somewhat casual reading of Matt Ridley’s Rational Optimist, Jared Diamond’s Guns Germs and Steel and Collapse, and probably a few other books that don’t leap to mind. These books have plenty of citation of studies if you are interested.
I think you would be hard pressed to find any existing “significant” country that does not engender a strong belief in patriotism among its populace, which does not lionize especially those who have given their lives in wars on behalf of the country. If you can think of any significant counter examples among the 50 richest or 50 most populous countries, please let me know. I am essentially hypothesizing that the scarcity of genteel foreigner-loving pacifist countries among the richest and most populous is not a mere coincidence.
The Netherlands is (used to be) pretty un-patriotic, to the point that “nationalist” means “nazi” and “patriot” isn’t used, ever. Our “Remembrance Day” is explicitly for all victims of all conflicts (admittedly with precedence given to Dutch WW2 victims, but explicitly including the people on the other side of our last colonial war).
One could argue that we are geopolitically reliant on the United States’ overwhelming military force, but that would be moving the goalposts.
On the one hand preloading the idea that I might move the goalposts is good argumentation. But at the risk of appearing to do that, let me try some rationalization.
Could the words patriotism and nationalism haven a meaning in the Netherlands which has been distorted by the traumatic history with a neighbor that linked these words so powerfully with expansionism and genocide?
The Netherlands is a democracy which supports a conscript army. They are a founding and continuing member of NATO. The Netherlands is famous for its international courts. Would you say that the Dutch tend to be neutral on the question of their continued existence as Dutch?
Perhaps the Dutch reject Nazi-style patriotism and nationalism but have their own spin on their national identify that, looked at through non-Nazi filtered glasses, is a flavor of nationalism and patriotism after all?
Yes, our attitude towards nationalism has certainly been shaped by WW2. I’m not enough of a historian, but it may also be important to note that the Netherlands have been a rather fragmented (we prefer “tolerant”) society before WW2; that is, one’s loyalty was more to “the catholics” or “the socialists” than to the nation itself.
Although we technically still have conscription, it’s been “paused” for many years, and re-introducing it would be unpopular, to say the least. We are indeed quite active in a military sense, but the current army is all-voiunteer and rather small. Humanitarian aid and international justice are more our speed (although humanitarian aid is increasingly coming under fire for being less effective than promised.)
Football matches and the monarchy aside, I haven’t detected many traces of nationalism in the Netherlands. With our local far-right party riding high in the polls, there has been an effort to revitalize Dutch nationalism, but that hasn’t been very successful. (Xenophobia/racism/anti-islam has been much more successful in setting the debate and drawing votes.)
I think you would be hard pressed to find any existing “significant” country that does not engender a strong belief in patriotism among its populace, which does not lionize especially those who have given their lives in wars on behalf of the country.
You’re begging the question here, by slipping in the assumption that these wars are “on behalf of the country,” rather than on behalf of the executive (e.g. president), on behalf of some vested interest, or just colossal f*-ups. To repeat what the author said,
“If a death is just a tragedy… [y]ou have to acknowledge that yes, really, … thousands of people—even the Good Guy’s soldiers! -- might be dying for no good reason at all.”
Also, the criteria that “all significant countries do it” strikes me as rather horrible reasoning. History is replete with examples of barbaric behaviors that were at one point considered perfectly normal, and often defended as a necessity without which the country would crumble.
I do have a suspicion that Australia might be less caught up in the heroic pedestal for war heroes, but all my Aussie friends are away for the weekend. Google did turn up a recent example of a high-profile hero being degenerated by a talk show, which suggests that the stigma is much lower there (but they were then forced to apologize, so there’s still at least some stigma—but this is an actual decorated hero we’re talking about).
Certainly, it would be hard for me to provide a citation for the claim “This country wouldn’t rip apart a talk show host who said the same thing there”, so I think we might have to just leave this one at intuitions (or, at least, I don’t care enough to do more than bug my Aussie friends when they get back)
I am not aware of any systematic attempt to study these things. My own opinion is formed from a somewhat casual reading of Matt Ridley’s Rational Optimist, Jared Diamond’s Guns Germs and Steel and Collapse, and probably a few other books that don’t leap to mind. These books have plenty of citation of studies if you are interested.
I think you would be hard pressed to find any existing “significant” country that does not engender a strong belief in patriotism among its populace, which does not lionize especially those who have given their lives in wars on behalf of the country. If you can think of any significant counter examples among the 50 richest or 50 most populous countries, please let me know. I am essentially hypothesizing that the scarcity of genteel foreigner-loving pacifist countries among the richest and most populous is not a mere coincidence.
The Netherlands is (used to be) pretty un-patriotic, to the point that “nationalist” means “nazi” and “patriot” isn’t used, ever. Our “Remembrance Day” is explicitly for all victims of all conflicts (admittedly with precedence given to Dutch WW2 victims, but explicitly including the people on the other side of our last colonial war).
One could argue that we are geopolitically reliant on the United States’ overwhelming military force, but that would be moving the goalposts.
(The Netherlands are #17).)
Thanks.
On the one hand preloading the idea that I might move the goalposts is good argumentation. But at the risk of appearing to do that, let me try some rationalization.
Could the words patriotism and nationalism haven a meaning in the Netherlands which has been distorted by the traumatic history with a neighbor that linked these words so powerfully with expansionism and genocide?
The Netherlands is a democracy which supports a conscript army. They are a founding and continuing member of NATO. The Netherlands is famous for its international courts. Would you say that the Dutch tend to be neutral on the question of their continued existence as Dutch?
Perhaps the Dutch reject Nazi-style patriotism and nationalism but have their own spin on their national identify that, looked at through non-Nazi filtered glasses, is a flavor of nationalism and patriotism after all?
Yes, our attitude towards nationalism has certainly been shaped by WW2. I’m not enough of a historian, but it may also be important to note that the Netherlands have been a rather fragmented (we prefer “tolerant”) society before WW2; that is, one’s loyalty was more to “the catholics” or “the socialists” than to the nation itself.
Although we technically still have conscription, it’s been “paused” for many years, and re-introducing it would be unpopular, to say the least. We are indeed quite active in a military sense, but the current army is all-voiunteer and rather small. Humanitarian aid and international justice are more our speed (although humanitarian aid is increasingly coming under fire for being less effective than promised.)
Football matches and the monarchy aside, I haven’t detected many traces of nationalism in the Netherlands. With our local far-right party riding high in the polls, there has been an effort to revitalize Dutch nationalism, but that hasn’t been very successful. (Xenophobia/racism/anti-islam has been much more successful in setting the debate and drawing votes.)
You’re begging the question here, by slipping in the assumption that these wars are “on behalf of the country,” rather than on behalf of the executive (e.g. president), on behalf of some vested interest, or just colossal f*-ups. To repeat what the author said,
“If a death is just a tragedy… [y]ou have to acknowledge that yes, really, … thousands of people—even the Good Guy’s soldiers! -- might be dying for no good reason at all.”
My theorizing was based largely on another comment in the thread: http://lesswrong.com/lw/cph/when_none_dare_urge_restraint_pt_2/6p0s
Also, the criteria that “all significant countries do it” strikes me as rather horrible reasoning. History is replete with examples of barbaric behaviors that were at one point considered perfectly normal, and often defended as a necessity without which the country would crumble.
I do have a suspicion that Australia might be less caught up in the heroic pedestal for war heroes, but all my Aussie friends are away for the weekend. Google did turn up a recent example of a high-profile hero being degenerated by a talk show, which suggests that the stigma is much lower there (but they were then forced to apologize, so there’s still at least some stigma—but this is an actual decorated hero we’re talking about).
Certainly, it would be hard for me to provide a citation for the claim “This country wouldn’t rip apart a talk show host who said the same thing there”, so I think we might have to just leave this one at intuitions (or, at least, I don’t care enough to do more than bug my Aussie friends when they get back)