Is the Joshua Bell experiment the kind of thing you had in mind? If so, it pretty conclusively confirms your suspicions.
No, not really. In the concert hall, you would have no problems distinguishing Bell from a random violinist: he’s actually much better. The Joshua Bell experiment was an experiment in seeing how someone who was unambiguously a top-class artist held up with inferential distance deliberately hugely increased—not a test of “is status in music a lie?” but “how arrogant is a top-class artist taken out of their depth?” And, y’know, Bell did pretty well and came across as a perfectly reasonable fellow.
In the concert hall, you would have no problems distinguishing Bell from a random violinist: he’s actually much better.
That doesn’t matter if there are so many more appealing cultural venues than concert hall.
And, y’know, Bell did pretty well
No, he made less than the typical busker and really only attracted those who were trained to identify the signals.
I don’t dispute that the music is good, for some people. I just think it’s ridiculous how much more money it commands for the wrong reasons. His skill isn’t so much better than the mere 95% percentile to justify that—that’s why they have to rely on so much more than musical skill to market him to royalty.
and came across as a perfectly reasonable fellow.
I don’t see what difference that makes. But yes, he surprisingly did recognize how much his self-worth collapses when he’s not pre-validated (i.e. performing for people who haven’t paid lots of money for it).
I meant “did pretty well” in terms of not reacting with arrogance, that being what was actually being tested. The trope in play (what made it a story that you remember) was Fish Out Of Water.
(The way to make money as a busker is to, whatever your instrument, play the Beatles. Over and over. And over and over. And over and over. And over and over.)
The trope in play (what made it a story that you remember) was Fish Out Of Water.
I’m actually quite willing to believe that Silas remembered it because (he thought) it proved his theory.
For my part, I viewed it as a test of how well the average person can detect subtly presented costly signals when under distraction. (Answer: not very well.)
The detail I remembered most was how children would stop with interest, only to be dragged away by their hurried parents.
I’m actually quite willing to believe that Silas remembered it because (he thought) it proved his theory.
Not really. I remember it because it’s fun watching people try to explain it away—I get a new answer every time for why the highest cultural achievements get utterly ignored, at that must be a problem on the beholder’s side.
The detail I remembered most was how children would stop with interest, only to be dragged away by their hurried parents.
Is that the standard you really want to go by? What children like?
Er, I’m not. The water is the world where people know the sort of music he plays and can form communicable opinions on how well he does it.
Okay, and the water for theologians is the community of theologians. Does that mean they’re accomplishing something truly great, or that they’re a clique?
Though to be fair, arguing over aesthetics on this level is like arguing over which variety of heroin is best to be addicted to. Battles to the death for insanely low stakes. Having us all taken out and shot is not an unreasonable passing fancy.
Your analogy would only be valid if theology was the study of an aesthetic matter. (I might think it was better approached as one, but I doubt we’ll find many theologians to agree.)
Well, not really. You’re asserting music that you have a greater than negligible inferential distance to is a fraudulent field, and you’re comparing it to a field you already consider fraudulent.
As such: the difference is that music is about aesthetics, not about the qualities of claimed supernatural beings. And in art, there is such a thing as inferential distance. Long post on the subject here. A given piece of art is created in a time, place and culture, to press the buttons in people’s heads, preferably starting with those of the artist. You will appreciate it more if you learn more about the time, place and culture, right down to the inside of the artist’s head as far as that can be ascertained, thus getting closer to the place in inference space of its birth.
Theology doesn’t, as far as I know, make the existence of God more believable if you know more of it; however, it is possible to learn about the cultural reference point for a piece of art and appreciate more what the artist was doing.
No, not really. In the concert hall, you would have no problems distinguishing Bell from a random violinist: he’s actually much better. The Joshua Bell experiment was an experiment in seeing how someone who was unambiguously a top-class artist held up with inferential distance deliberately hugely increased—not a test of “is status in music a lie?” but “how arrogant is a top-class artist taken out of their depth?” And, y’know, Bell did pretty well and came across as a perfectly reasonable fellow.
That doesn’t matter if there are so many more appealing cultural venues than concert hall.
No, he made less than the typical busker and really only attracted those who were trained to identify the signals.
I don’t dispute that the music is good, for some people. I just think it’s ridiculous how much more money it commands for the wrong reasons. His skill isn’t so much better than the mere 95% percentile to justify that—that’s why they have to rely on so much more than musical skill to market him to royalty.
I don’t see what difference that makes. But yes, he surprisingly did recognize how much his self-worth collapses when he’s not pre-validated (i.e. performing for people who haven’t paid lots of money for it).
I meant “did pretty well” in terms of not reacting with arrogance, that being what was actually being tested. The trope in play (what made it a story that you remember) was Fish Out Of Water.
(The way to make money as a busker is to, whatever your instrument, play the Beatles. Over and over. And over and over. And over and over. And over and over.)
I’m actually quite willing to believe that Silas remembered it because (he thought) it proved his theory.
For my part, I viewed it as a test of how well the average person can detect subtly presented costly signals when under distraction. (Answer: not very well.)
The detail I remembered most was how children would stop with interest, only to be dragged away by their hurried parents.
Point. I suppose I mean “why they bothered to run the story.” They weren’t running it to expose Bell as a charlatan, they ran it as Fish Out Of Water.
Yeah :-D
Unfortunately, the distractibility of the people with the money is why busking for money involves Beatles. Lots of Beatles. More Beatles.
Not really. I remember it because it’s fun watching people try to explain it away—I get a new answer every time for why the highest cultural achievements get utterly ignored, at that must be a problem on the beholder’s side.
Is that the standard you really want to go by? What children like?
But what’s the water then? And why is the fish’s greatness so brittle that you have to define the water so narrowly?
Er, I’m not. The water is the world where people know the sort of music he plays and can form communicable opinions on how well he does it.
Are you really claiming they wrote that story to demonstrate Bell was a fraud, rather than as a fish out of water story?
Okay, and the water for theologians is the community of theologians. Does that mean they’re accomplishing something truly great, or that they’re a clique?
I have just corrected the systematic downvoting of Silas. His general point seems important.
As it happens, I was also the victim of systematic drive-by downvoting in the last few minutes.
I don’t know what the relationship between these two facts is.
(Edit: I didn’t participate in the downvoting of Silas, I don’t think.)
I have a long-standing policy of not voting in discussions in which I am strongly opinionated and participating in, which applies here.
As was I. Go rationality!
Though to be fair, arguing over aesthetics on this level is like arguing over which variety of heroin is best to be addicted to. Battles to the death for insanely low stakes. Having us all taken out and shot is not an unreasonable passing fancy.
That’s an impressively sane analogy to keep in mind. Thanks.
Your analogy would only be valid if theology was the study of an aesthetic matter. (I might think it was better approached as one, but I doubt we’ll find many theologians to agree.)
*redefines theology as the study of aesthetic matter*
You don’t get away that easily. If your entire argument rests on, “I’ve chosen to apply this symbol, this way” then I think we’re done here.
Well, not really. You’re asserting music that you have a greater than negligible inferential distance to is a fraudulent field, and you’re comparing it to a field you already consider fraudulent.
As such: the difference is that music is about aesthetics, not about the qualities of claimed supernatural beings. And in art, there is such a thing as inferential distance. Long post on the subject here. A given piece of art is created in a time, place and culture, to press the buttons in people’s heads, preferably starting with those of the artist. You will appreciate it more if you learn more about the time, place and culture, right down to the inside of the artist’s head as far as that can be ascertained, thus getting closer to the place in inference space of its birth.
Theology doesn’t, as far as I know, make the existence of God more believable if you know more of it; however, it is possible to learn about the cultural reference point for a piece of art and appreciate more what the artist was doing.