“Of a level of sophistication relative to their peers and predecessors comparable to Beethoven’s level relative to his.”
“Sophistication” can be read in several ways. Do you mean something like “technical intricacy”?
The relevant variable for me personally is subjective aesthetic response. Have you found contemporary composers to whom you’ve had as strong a positive aesthetic response as Bach or Brahms? From what you’ve written elsewhere I would guess that the answer is “yes” but asking to make sure that I understand.
My confidence lies not in the “general appeal” of any particular favorite composer of mine, but rather in the proposition that there currently exist people who are doing the-thing-that-Beethoven-was-doing.
How do you characterize the-thing-that-Beethoven was doing?
Another way to put it would be that if a genetic twin of Beethoven were born in this era, he would with high probability grow up to be a member of the set of people I’m referring to.
At present I believe otherwise, but you have more subject matter knowledge than I do. I would be interested in seeing you flesh out your thoughts here.
“Sophistication” can be read in several ways. Do you mean something like “technical intricacy”?
Well, I suppose your use of the phrase “something like” would allow me to get by with a simple “yes”. However, I reserve the right to ADBOC if necessary.
My choice of synonym would be “interestingness”. Basically, music that, whatever its particular rhetorical, programmatic, or “emotive” features, sounds like it was written by somebody in the 140+ IQ range.
The relevant variable for me personally is subjective aesthetic response.
Surely you realize that that’s just a fancy way of saying “what I care about is how much I like it.” This is a step in the wrong direction: a de-reduction rather than a reduction of the concept we’re trying to explicate.
I mean, obviously the same is true for me also.
Have you found contemporary composers to whom you’ve had as strong a positive aesthetic response as Bach or Brahms?
Yes, of course!
How do you characterize the-thing-that-Beethoven was doing?
Writing maximally interesting music.
Another way to put it would be that if a genetic twin of Beethoven were born in this era, he would with high probability grow up to be a member of the set of people I’m referring to.
At present I believe otherwise,
My curiosity is roused. What kind of musician would you predict that a modern genetic twin of Beethoven would most likely become? What predictions does your model make about the music that a modern composer would have written if he or she had been born in 1770?
Well, I suppose your use of the phrase “something like” would allow me to get by with a simple “yes”. However, I reserve the right to ADBOC if necessary.
This is fair.
My choice of synonym would be “interestingness”. Basically, music that, whatever its particular rhetorical, programmatic, or “emotive” features, sounds like it was written by somebody in the 140+ IQ range.
Is IQ really the factor that you want to highlight here? I would guess that 90+% of people with 140+ IQ are incapable of writing music that I find compelling.
Surely you realize that that’s just a fancy way of saying “what I care about is how much I like it.” This is a step in the wrong direction: a de-reduction rather than a reduction of the concept we’re trying to explicate.
I mean, obviously the same is true for me also.
My statement was nonvacuous; as far as I can tell there are people who judge works of art based on criteria other than subjective aesthetic response. Thanks for clarifying. I used “subjective aesthetic response” rather than “how much one likes it” for the connotations.
Have you found contemporary composers to whom you’ve had as strong a positive aesthetic response as Bach or Brahms?
Yes, of course!
Here too, my question was not vacuous; there are people who I know who would answer in the negative. I myself would answer in the negative though this should be understood in the context of me having spent relatively little time with contemporary composers.
My curiosity is roused. What kind of musician would you predict that a modern genetic twin of Beethoven would most likely become? What predictions does your model make about the music that a modern composer would have written if he or she had been born in 1770?
Is IQ really the factor that you want to highlight here? I would guess that 90+% of people with 140+ IQ are incapable of writing music that I find compelling.
As you know, P(A|B) != P(B|A). It’s not that most high-IQ folks are capable of writing interesting music, but rather that almost no non-high-IQ folks are. (It may be useful to recall what I mean by IQ, which isn’t necessarily what people immediately think of when they hear the term, but is what I believe they should think of.)
This should make sense when you consider that music is ultimately generated from the composer’s stream-of-consciousness; and the higher one’s IQ, the more interesting one’s stream-of-consciousness tends to be. (This is almost tautological given my conception of IQ.)
My statement was nonvacuous; as far as I can tell there are people who judge works of art based on criteria other than subjective aesthetic response.
To a large degree, this impression probably exists due to communication difficulties, in particular a vocabulary far too impoverished to adequately reflect the complexity of aesthetic value.
Many (not all, but a nontrivial subset) of the people you’re talking about, I would venture, will have conceded more than necessary when they agree that they’re using criteria other than “subjective aesthetic response” to judge the value of a work.
(EDIT: I am led to suspect this because you contrasted “subjective aesthetic response” not with, say, the number of people who say they like it, but rather with “technical intricacy”.)
[Have you found contemporary composers to whom you’ve had as strong a positive aesthetic response as Bach or Brahms?] Yes, of course!
Here too, my question was not vacuous; there are people who I know who would answer in the negative.
The “of course” here was meant to suggest not that your question was vacuous, but rather that you were perhaps a bit overly timid in inferring my answer previously. :-)
This should make sense when you consider that music is ultimately generated from the composer’s stream-of-consciousness; and the higher one’s IQ, the more interesting one’s stream-of-consciousness tends to be. (This is almost tautological given my conception of IQ.)
The only thing that is a tautalogical result of having a high IQ is the ability to achieve good results on IQ tests.
I agree with respect to music, high IQ and stream of consciousness and all practical expectations. Just not the redefinition of IQ. Make up a new name for what IQ tests should measure—or just use ‘intelligence’.
I could continue the semantic argument (“would it be a CQ test or a cancer test?”), but instead I’ll just skip to the real reason I use the term “IQ”, which is because it’s shorter than “intelligence”, and I don’t consider “the ability to achieve good results on IQ tests” to be an interesting or important enough concept to deserve exclusive rights to the term.
There are a couple of potential issues with your usage:
The ability to achieve good results on IQ tests is correlated with various figures of interest. See the references that Carl Shulman gives here. As such, IQ does have a functional and useful technical meaning and assigning it a new meaning can be confusing.
Different people may have different notions of “the underlying trait that IQ tests are supposed to be measuring.” In particular, there’s a serious possibility of perhaps unknowingly taking one’s own mental architecture (including aesthetic preferences) to define the direction (if not magnitude) in mind-space of this trait on account of generalizing from one example.
The use of “intelligence” stands to suffer from (2) though not (1). I’ve found it most fruitful to maintain a positivistic attitude toward intelligence as a concept unless I’m in conversation with somebody who I know attaches the same connotations to the term that I do.
(My other comment not withstanding; I agree that what IQ tests measure is of limited interest and usefulness; the issue is just that it’s not so clear how to do better.)
I suspect they’d do the best they could in the situation they found themselves in. e.g. A genetic copy of Shakespeare might well become a writer, and an excellent one, but I don’t see that he’d necessarily find himself working in theatre. (It’s almost a cliche to assert that these days Shakespeare would be in Hollywood.)
Thanks for your response.
“Sophistication” can be read in several ways. Do you mean something like “technical intricacy”?
The relevant variable for me personally is subjective aesthetic response. Have you found contemporary composers to whom you’ve had as strong a positive aesthetic response as Bach or Brahms? From what you’ve written elsewhere I would guess that the answer is “yes” but asking to make sure that I understand.
How do you characterize the-thing-that-Beethoven was doing?
At present I believe otherwise, but you have more subject matter knowledge than I do. I would be interested in seeing you flesh out your thoughts here.
Well, I suppose your use of the phrase “something like” would allow me to get by with a simple “yes”. However, I reserve the right to ADBOC if necessary.
My choice of synonym would be “interestingness”. Basically, music that, whatever its particular rhetorical, programmatic, or “emotive” features, sounds like it was written by somebody in the 140+ IQ range.
Surely you realize that that’s just a fancy way of saying “what I care about is how much I like it.” This is a step in the wrong direction: a de-reduction rather than a reduction of the concept we’re trying to explicate.
I mean, obviously the same is true for me also.
Yes, of course!
Writing maximally interesting music.
My curiosity is roused. What kind of musician would you predict that a modern genetic twin of Beethoven would most likely become? What predictions does your model make about the music that a modern composer would have written if he or she had been born in 1770?
This is fair.
Is IQ really the factor that you want to highlight here? I would guess that 90+% of people with 140+ IQ are incapable of writing music that I find compelling.
My statement was nonvacuous; as far as I can tell there are people who judge works of art based on criteria other than subjective aesthetic response. Thanks for clarifying. I used “subjective aesthetic response” rather than “how much one likes it” for the connotations.
Here too, my question was not vacuous; there are people who I know who would answer in the negative. I myself would answer in the negative though this should be understood in the context of me having spent relatively little time with contemporary composers.
Will respond when I have some more time.
As you know, P(A|B) != P(B|A). It’s not that most high-IQ folks are capable of writing interesting music, but rather that almost no non-high-IQ folks are. (It may be useful to recall what I mean by IQ, which isn’t necessarily what people immediately think of when they hear the term, but is what I believe they should think of.)
This should make sense when you consider that music is ultimately generated from the composer’s stream-of-consciousness; and the higher one’s IQ, the more interesting one’s stream-of-consciousness tends to be. (This is almost tautological given my conception of IQ.)
To a large degree, this impression probably exists due to communication difficulties, in particular a vocabulary far too impoverished to adequately reflect the complexity of aesthetic value.
Many (not all, but a nontrivial subset) of the people you’re talking about, I would venture, will have conceded more than necessary when they agree that they’re using criteria other than “subjective aesthetic response” to judge the value of a work.
(EDIT: I am led to suspect this because you contrasted “subjective aesthetic response” not with, say, the number of people who say they like it, but rather with “technical intricacy”.)
The “of course” here was meant to suggest not that your question was vacuous, but rather that you were perhaps a bit overly timid in inferring my answer previously. :-)
Looking forward to it.
The only thing that is a tautalogical result of having a high IQ is the ability to achieve good results on IQ tests.
I agree with respect to music, high IQ and stream of consciousness and all practical expectations. Just not the redefinition of IQ. Make up a new name for what IQ tests should measure—or just use ‘intelligence’.
(1) I said “almost”.
(2) Is “cancer” the ability to get positive results on cancer tests?
No. If humans adopted a naming convention for the purposes of suiting your analogy then “CQ” could be.
I could continue the semantic argument (“would it be a CQ test or a cancer test?”), but instead I’ll just skip to the real reason I use the term “IQ”, which is because it’s shorter than “intelligence”, and I don’t consider “the ability to achieve good results on IQ tests” to be an interesting or important enough concept to deserve exclusive rights to the term.
There are a couple of potential issues with your usage:
The ability to achieve good results on IQ tests is correlated with various figures of interest. See the references that Carl Shulman gives here. As such, IQ does have a functional and useful technical meaning and assigning it a new meaning can be confusing.
Different people may have different notions of “the underlying trait that IQ tests are supposed to be measuring.” In particular, there’s a serious possibility of perhaps unknowingly taking one’s own mental architecture (including aesthetic preferences) to define the direction (if not magnitude) in mind-space of this trait on account of generalizing from one example.
The use of “intelligence” stands to suffer from (2) though not (1). I’ve found it most fruitful to maintain a positivistic attitude toward intelligence as a concept unless I’m in conversation with somebody who I know attaches the same connotations to the term that I do.
(My other comment not withstanding; I agree that what IQ tests measure is of limited interest and usefulness; the issue is just that it’s not so clear how to do better.)
And for even more brevity you could leave out the word ‘tautological’ and elaborations thereof. As a bonus you wouldn’t need to read corrections! :)
I suspect they’d do the best they could in the situation they found themselves in. e.g. A genetic copy of Shakespeare might well become a writer, and an excellent one, but I don’t see that he’d necessarily find himself working in theatre. (It’s almost a cliche to assert that these days Shakespeare would be in Hollywood.)