I’m curious but a bit confused about some of the benefits of EP/GP over the straight free-market model, but if EP/GP did indeed take over then I’m sure there’s something I’m missing.
1: Presumably, in both models, in the long run it takes roughly the same average amount of time (modulated by your efficiency of pro-social activity) to get an item of quality >x, but it seems that in EP/GP you get your first almost immediately, while in DKP your timer starts from 0. Was there the issue of individuals jumping around guilds to try and get that first item?
2: Is there any system by which one can defer the receiving of items in EP/GP so that you don’t end up getting something that is of low or nil value to you (especially since they can’t be traded)? The main advantage of the free-market, at least in systems where individuals have similar ability to earn currency, is usually that items go to those who value them most, so you’d expect DWP to have a big efficiency advantage if you can’t choose whether to accept. On the other hand, if this deferral is possible, would this degenerate into something like a free market, except where new entrants have first dibs over everything?
The power of attracting new players is a valuable advantage I’m sure but it’s the only one that I really see from the 3 given above, and I can’t see how this isn’t possible in a similar way by, say, a free market system where a new member gets some kind of joining bonus.
Presumably, in both models, in the long run it takes roughly the same average amount of time (modulated by your efficiency of pro-social activity) to get an item of quality >x
I’m not sure this is true, and I’m not even sure this question makes sense. Are you referring to the time between when a new member joins and when he gets an item of some quality? If so, then of course that period is shorter with EP/GP—how can it be otherwise? Besides, for some values of x, the answer to the question will be modulated not just by the individual contribution of the said member, but also by the overall effectiveness of the raid—and this depends on choice of loot system, as I said.
Was there the issue of individuals jumping around guilds to try and get that first item?
Not much; such issues were handled very effectively simply by informal reputation / word-of-mouth effects.
Besides, getting into a good raiding guild wasn’t guaranteed; guilds had an application process, and recruitment was highly selective. It wasn’t to one’s benefit to leave a guild immediately after joining and receiving an item. What then? Join another guild? In the time it would take to find another guild to join, to get accepted into it, to get invited to their raid, you could just accumulate the points to get another item.
Is there any system by which one can defer the receiving of items in EP/GP so that you don’t end up getting something that is of low or nil value to you (especially since they can’t be traded)?
… naturally, you would only get anything if you wanted it and explicitly asked for it. I suppose I didn’t say that outright, but it seemed very obvious to me!
On the other hand, if this deferral is possible, would this degenerate into something like a free market, except where new entrants have first dibs over everything?
The idea, of course, is that items go to whoever wants them, but if multiple people want an item, then the recipient is selected by EP/GP ratio priority. The differences between this system and the “free-market” systems like DKP is, in fact, exactly what I describe in the post.
The power of attracting new players is a valuable advantage I’m sure but it’s the only one that I really see from the 3 given above, and I can’t see how this isn’t possible in a similar way by, say, a free market system where a new member gets some kind of joining bonus.
If the joining bonus were large enough to give a new member enough DKP to get the choice items, then older members would (quite rightly) complain. If it were smaller, it wouldn’t work.
If the joining bonus were large enough to give a new member enough DKP to get the choice items, then older members would (quite rightly) complain. If it were smaller, it wouldn’t work.
I guess my central question is, a new player will have infinite EP/GP after they first receive EP. They can therefore wait until their perfect item comes up, and choose that. This to me seems extremely similar to giving an uncertain but potentially very large joining bonus. After losing this infinite ratio status, the situation then seems very similar to a free market one. In particular I don’t understand why having collected lots of points (ie ability to claim future value) would lead to your incentive dropping off, while accumulating a high ratio (which you’d presumably need to ‘save’ for a while for really top items) doesn’t have this problem.
I guess my central question is, a new player will have infinite EP/GP after they first receive EP. They can therefore wait until their perfect item comes up, and choose that.
Sure. They can. Then they’ll have one really good item. And that’s great, but it’s not that great.
Consider this scenario:
I join a raiding guild, and I go on a raid with them. We take down a boss. Several items drop. One of them is something that would benefit me; it’s a big upgrade from what I have right now! And I can get it, guaranteed, due to my infinite EP/GP ratio. But, I don’t ask for it, because I’m looking for that really, really great item.
We take down another boss. More items drop. One of these, too, is an upgrade for me! But I decline it.
We take down another boss. And another. And another. I pass over item after item, watching other raid members take it all, because I’m waiting for us to get to the end boss, who has the really good stuff. Finally, we take down that end boss! The thing I’ve been coveting drops! I ask for it, and even though lots of other people want it, too, I’ve got that infinite ratio—so I get it. Victory!
… and now I have one really good piece of equipment, and the rest of my stuff is crap. Meanwhile, everyone else is decked out head to toe in high-quality gear. Hmm.
And then, next week, when the raid goes on to the next raid, I show up, but find that I don’t get a raid invite. “But why?!”, I exclaim. “Well,” the raid leader answers, “to be honest, Said, your performance in that last raid was really sub-par. We almost didn’t take down that end boss (you saw how close that fight was), and—I’m sorry to be so blunt—it was largely your fault. I know you’re a good player, but your equipment is lacking; you just can’t perform nearly as well as the rest of our members, with that paltry gear you’ve got. Maybe you shouldn’t’ve passed over all those drops. I’m sorry, but you’re out.”
Having hoarded that infinite ratio won’t seem like such a great idea, then.
In particular I don’t understand why collecting points (ie ability to claim future value) would lead to your incentive dropping off, while accumulating a high ratio (which you’d presumably need to ‘save’ for really top items) doesn’t have this problem.
It’s a simple matter of arithmetic.
If I have 10,000 EP and 1,000 GP, getting two 500-GP items reduces my ratio from 10 to 5, which is the same ratio as someone who has 2,500 EP and 500 GP. If I have 10,000 DKP and I spend 3,000 DKP to get an item, I still have 7,000 DKP, and am still guaranteed to vastly outbid someone with 2,500 DKP, no matter what item is being contested. In the former case, if I want to maintain my priority, I need to keep earning EP. In the latter case, I can skip a raid to go on a drunken bender, and when I come back the following week, I’m still guaranteed my choice of loot.
I’m curious but a bit confused about some of the benefits of EP/GP over the straight free-market model, but if EP/GP did indeed take over then I’m sure there’s something I’m missing.
1: Presumably, in both models, in the long run it takes roughly the same average amount of time (modulated by your efficiency of pro-social activity) to get an item of quality >x, but it seems that in EP/GP you get your first almost immediately, while in DKP your timer starts from 0. Was there the issue of individuals jumping around guilds to try and get that first item?
2: Is there any system by which one can defer the receiving of items in EP/GP so that you don’t end up getting something that is of low or nil value to you (especially since they can’t be traded)? The main advantage of the free-market, at least in systems where individuals have similar ability to earn currency, is usually that items go to those who value them most, so you’d expect DWP to have a big efficiency advantage if you can’t choose whether to accept. On the other hand, if this deferral is possible, would this degenerate into something like a free market, except where new entrants have first dibs over everything?
The power of attracting new players is a valuable advantage I’m sure but it’s the only one that I really see from the 3 given above, and I can’t see how this isn’t possible in a similar way by, say, a free market system where a new member gets some kind of joining bonus.
I’m not sure this is true, and I’m not even sure this question makes sense. Are you referring to the time between when a new member joins and when he gets an item of some quality? If so, then of course that period is shorter with EP/GP—how can it be otherwise? Besides, for some values of x, the answer to the question will be modulated not just by the individual contribution of the said member, but also by the overall effectiveness of the raid—and this depends on choice of loot system, as I said.
Not much; such issues were handled very effectively simply by informal reputation / word-of-mouth effects.
Besides, getting into a good raiding guild wasn’t guaranteed; guilds had an application process, and recruitment was highly selective. It wasn’t to one’s benefit to leave a guild immediately after joining and receiving an item. What then? Join another guild? In the time it would take to find another guild to join, to get accepted into it, to get invited to their raid, you could just accumulate the points to get another item.
… naturally, you would only get anything if you wanted it and explicitly asked for it. I suppose I didn’t say that outright, but it seemed very obvious to me!
The idea, of course, is that items go to whoever wants them, but if multiple people want an item, then the recipient is selected by EP/GP ratio priority. The differences between this system and the “free-market” systems like DKP is, in fact, exactly what I describe in the post.
If the joining bonus were large enough to give a new member enough DKP to get the choice items, then older members would (quite rightly) complain. If it were smaller, it wouldn’t work.
Thanks for replying :)
I guess my central question is, a new player will have infinite EP/GP after they first receive EP. They can therefore wait until their perfect item comes up, and choose that. This to me seems extremely similar to giving an uncertain but potentially very large joining bonus. After losing this infinite ratio status, the situation then seems very similar to a free market one. In particular I don’t understand why having collected lots of points (ie ability to claim future value) would lead to your incentive dropping off, while accumulating a high ratio (which you’d presumably need to ‘save’ for a while for really top items) doesn’t have this problem.
Sure. They can. Then they’ll have one really good item. And that’s great, but it’s not that great.
Consider this scenario:
I join a raiding guild, and I go on a raid with them. We take down a boss. Several items drop. One of them is something that would benefit me; it’s a big upgrade from what I have right now! And I can get it, guaranteed, due to my infinite EP/GP ratio. But, I don’t ask for it, because I’m looking for that really, really great item.
We take down another boss. More items drop. One of these, too, is an upgrade for me! But I decline it.
We take down another boss. And another. And another. I pass over item after item, watching other raid members take it all, because I’m waiting for us to get to the end boss, who has the really good stuff. Finally, we take down that end boss! The thing I’ve been coveting drops! I ask for it, and even though lots of other people want it, too, I’ve got that infinite ratio—so I get it. Victory!
… and now I have one really good piece of equipment, and the rest of my stuff is crap. Meanwhile, everyone else is decked out head to toe in high-quality gear. Hmm.
And then, next week, when the raid goes on to the next raid, I show up, but find that I don’t get a raid invite. “But why?!”, I exclaim. “Well,” the raid leader answers, “to be honest, Said, your performance in that last raid was really sub-par. We almost didn’t take down that end boss (you saw how close that fight was), and—I’m sorry to be so blunt—it was largely your fault. I know you’re a good player, but your equipment is lacking; you just can’t perform nearly as well as the rest of our members, with that paltry gear you’ve got. Maybe you shouldn’t’ve passed over all those drops. I’m sorry, but you’re out.”
Having hoarded that infinite ratio won’t seem like such a great idea, then.
It’s a simple matter of arithmetic.
If I have 10,000 EP and 1,000 GP, getting two 500-GP items reduces my ratio from 10 to 5, which is the same ratio as someone who has 2,500 EP and 500 GP. If I have 10,000 DKP and I spend 3,000 DKP to get an item, I still have 7,000 DKP, and am still guaranteed to vastly outbid someone with 2,500 DKP, no matter what item is being contested. In the former case, if I want to maintain my priority, I need to keep earning EP. In the latter case, I can skip a raid to go on a drunken bender, and when I come back the following week, I’m still guaranteed my choice of loot.