The idea of C being a public relations agency resonates for me. I prefer the C/U dichotomy to the superego/ego dichotomy because whereas in both cases it is U or the ego that represents my real self, the first theory has U in agent-control and trying to mollify C, the second theory has the superego in agent-control and embarrassed by the ego. I feel like the first theory more closely fits what I experience, especially during indecision conflicts. Without any guilt, I’ll ask, what is the minimum I need to do to feel external-world/socially comfortable here? Because my main goal is be true to my ‘self’. Also, morality doesn’t consistently break evenly on one side or the other in these conflicts.
So I disagree with the idea that everything altruistic and good about a person goes in C, and that U is an ugly, selfish animal. I only agree that U is socially unacceptable. For one thing, empathy is a basic, natural emotion and society teaches us to repress its natural expression as much as it teaches us to express it in fake ways. C does feel like a liar (I think this is because U doesn’t understand and isn’t convinced by propositional arguments), but C needn’t actually be lying, or representing a better or worse aspect of yourself. Its just useful. (Here on Less Wrong, I feel like we are all ’U’s trying to double-check what C is doing and make it more correct.)
I agree with Tim Tyler, that consciousness containing the things you need to be able to reflect on in order to function properly would be more basic way of delineating the conscious mind. Combining this with the idea of C as the public relations agent, this turns into: C is in charge of everything U doesn’t do naturally on its own, in order to relate to and succeed in the outside world. If U can’t relate to people starving on other continents, C uses logical reasoning to try to care and develop an identity as someone who would care. If U wants to sit down next to the beggar on the street and help him gather resources to survive and feel good, C has the reasons why that isn’t practical or good for U in the long run. Indeed, C is our agent, especially our public relations agent.
About empathy: what is a good way for someone who experiences less empathy to relate to more normal humans?
About lying: I do not regard it as helpful to consider whether C is lying. Instead, one should ask whether there exists an isomorphism between C’s purported beliefs and an accurate model of the person’s whole mind, and if so, what that isomorphism is.
As an example from my experience, consider the exchange:
“Oh, hi, [given name]. How are you?” ″Oh, fine, thanks.”
The second person, despite not being “fine” by more objective metrics, need not be regarded as lying, so long as “Oh, fine, thanks”, is simply taken to mean “I recognize that you have taken effort to express concern to me, and would like to reciprocate by showing friendliness and not bothering you with more details about myself than are appropriate for our relationship.”
Instead of asking such a nebulous, abstract question as, “Is the second person lying by claiming to be fine?” I contend that one should focus on the question of how those statements should map to a model of reality, and if there exists a concise description for how it does so.
I’m not sure what you mean by “the natural expression of empathy”, though I do agree that society encourages you to express it whether you have it or not.
By the natural expression of empathy I mean the empathy we feel at gut, involuntary level when someone being in distress makes us feel bad. For example, babies crying when other babies are upset may be the first expressions of this (though it may also reflect a selfish concern that they are in a ‘bad situation’). But certainly, seeing other people in pain can make us feel nauseous and distressed and we often want to help.
I wrote that socialization forces us to repress natural empathy as much as it requires us to fake it in some contexts. We feel empathy most naturally in physically immediate contexts (for example, towards a beggar on the street or towards someone in class being teased) and we are often socialized to repress or at least tone down some of this empathy, and less naturally in spatially removed contexts, in which we are socialized to further develop it.
Whatever is going on isn’t just about selfishness vs. empathy. There are usually social rules requiring you to not show empathy for some people and/or the results of some actions.
The idea of C being a public relations agency resonates for me. I prefer the C/U dichotomy to the superego/ego dichotomy because whereas in both cases it is U or the ego that represents my real self, the first theory has U in agent-control and trying to mollify C, the second theory has the superego in agent-control and embarrassed by the ego. I feel like the first theory more closely fits what I experience, especially during indecision conflicts. Without any guilt, I’ll ask, what is the minimum I need to do to feel external-world/socially comfortable here? Because my main goal is be true to my ‘self’. Also, morality doesn’t consistently break evenly on one side or the other in these conflicts.
So I disagree with the idea that everything altruistic and good about a person goes in C, and that U is an ugly, selfish animal. I only agree that U is socially unacceptable. For one thing, empathy is a basic, natural emotion and society teaches us to repress its natural expression as much as it teaches us to express it in fake ways. C does feel like a liar (I think this is because U doesn’t understand and isn’t convinced by propositional arguments), but C needn’t actually be lying, or representing a better or worse aspect of yourself. Its just useful. (Here on Less Wrong, I feel like we are all ’U’s trying to double-check what C is doing and make it more correct.)
I agree with Tim Tyler, that consciousness containing the things you need to be able to reflect on in order to function properly would be more basic way of delineating the conscious mind. Combining this with the idea of C as the public relations agent, this turns into: C is in charge of everything U doesn’t do naturally on its own, in order to relate to and succeed in the outside world. If U can’t relate to people starving on other continents, C uses logical reasoning to try to care and develop an identity as someone who would care. If U wants to sit down next to the beggar on the street and help him gather resources to survive and feel good, C has the reasons why that isn’t practical or good for U in the long run. Indeed, C is our agent, especially our public relations agent.
About empathy: what is a good way for someone who experiences less empathy to relate to more normal humans?
About lying: I do not regard it as helpful to consider whether C is lying. Instead, one should ask whether there exists an isomorphism between C’s purported beliefs and an accurate model of the person’s whole mind, and if so, what that isomorphism is.
As an example from my experience, consider the exchange:
“Oh, hi, [given name]. How are you?”
″Oh, fine, thanks.”
The second person, despite not being “fine” by more objective metrics, need not be regarded as lying, so long as “Oh, fine, thanks”, is simply taken to mean “I recognize that you have taken effort to express concern to me, and would like to reciprocate by showing friendliness and not bothering you with more details about myself than are appropriate for our relationship.”
Instead of asking such a nebulous, abstract question as, “Is the second person lying by claiming to be fine?” I contend that one should focus on the question of how those statements should map to a model of reality, and if there exists a concise description for how it does so.
I’m not sure what you mean by “the natural expression of empathy”, though I do agree that society encourages you to express it whether you have it or not.
By the natural expression of empathy I mean the empathy we feel at gut, involuntary level when someone being in distress makes us feel bad. For example, babies crying when other babies are upset may be the first expressions of this (though it may also reflect a selfish concern that they are in a ‘bad situation’). But certainly, seeing other people in pain can make us feel nauseous and distressed and we often want to help.
I wrote that socialization forces us to repress natural empathy as much as it requires us to fake it in some contexts. We feel empathy most naturally in physically immediate contexts (for example, towards a beggar on the street or towards someone in class being teased) and we are often socialized to repress or at least tone down some of this empathy, and less naturally in spatially removed contexts, in which we are socialized to further develop it.
Whatever is going on isn’t just about selfishness vs. empathy. There are usually social rules requiring you to not show empathy for some people and/or the results of some actions.