Why shouldn’t Alice self-modify into someone who has a stronger passion for homelessness, for 4 mu?
I don’t really think this is possible to do.
Of course, the example I gave assumes that Alice has the capability of self-modifying in the area of what she’s passionate about, and not in the area of how much money she needs to be happy, whereas in reality for many people it may be the other way around.
Depression (a chemical state of the brain) is not laziness, nor lack of motivation, nor akrasia, nor lack of motivation. If you are referring to something other than a chemical state, try using ‘melancholy’.
Okay, but depression is a condition that often causes laziness. I’m not sure exactly what part of the post you’re disagreeing with—if it’s the quoted text, then that was written by probably one of the world’s biggest contributors to the study of depression, so I don’t think you should try to correct him unless you have strong credentials.
I was specifically objecting to where you generalized depression and low self-esteem as being similar or having similar effects. I suspected a four-term syllogism error when you summarized the expert opinion.
I have different objections to the conclusions of the people who study depression, and I don’t recognize their contributions as constituting an authority that can be appealed to. That’s mostly because they have a track record of being unable to predict the effects of an intervention.
That’s mostly because they have a track record of being unable to predict the effects of an intervention.
I suspect a large part of that is because they also frequently make the mistake of implicitly taking the same half-reductionist position you take in this comment.
“Take these pill, and you have a small chance of feeling better, large chance of no notable change, and moderate chance of feeling worse; if you don’t feel better, adjust the dosage.”
That’s poor predictive ability regarding the result of an outcome.
“After blind tests of N brains, we were able to distinguish with high certainty the ones that came from people with reported histories of the symptoms of depression from those that came from people who reported having none of those symptoms.”
The chemistry-as-cause belief is because the mechanism used to identify potential interventions is based on chemistry that is intended to make the brains harder to distinguish in destructive testing. Chemistry causing emotions and altering mental states is well documented and uncontroversial; depression being a chemical state with specific visible symptoms is exactly as strange as drunkenness being such a state.
First, why is this distinction relevant to the comment you made in the ancestor?
Depression (a chemical state of the brain) is not laziness, nor lack of motivation, nor akrasia, nor lack of motivation. If you are referring to something other than a chemical state, try using ‘melancholy’.
Second, the brain is a complicated system. Naively playing with the inner workings of a complicated system tends to result in all kinds of unintended consequences. In other words, just because we have some idea what chemical state corresponds to depression, doesn’t mean using chemicals is the best way to treat it.
It does mean that you shouldn’t conflate atypical serotonin levels with temporary loneliness after one’s cat died by calling both of those ‘depression’.
Do you have research that the temporary loneliness after one’s cat died does not in fact involve atypical serotonin levels?
Also why is this relevant. Your statement implied that the similarity cluster that includes laziness, lack of motivation, and akrasia does not include depression. Even if laziness say turns out to involve a different hormone, or some other chemical and/or physical process, I fail to see why that’s an argument against including depression in the same similarity cluster.
Depression, laziness, lack of motivation, and akrasia do not share many of their defining features. For the purpose of dealing with one or more of them, they are more different than they are similar.
To speak of them as similar, you need a context distant from them. If you are discussing personnel management in general , for example, they could be grouped together with disloyalty and family problems as potential characteristics of people that need to be taken into consideration. Once you get into the consideration that needs to be taken for a specific individual, treating depression the same as laziness provides bad outcomes.
Depression, laziness, lack of motivation, and akrasia do not share many of their defining features. For the purpose of dealing with one or more of them, they are more different than they are similar.
They certainly have similar symptoms, i.e., difficulty getting oneself to do what one (or at least one’s higher brain functions) want to do. If your claim is that they have different underlying causes, I’d like to see what evidence convinced you of this.
Not doublethink; the sense of “My observations of what I am doing right now are inconsistent with my decisions regarding what I am going to do right now.”
I don’t really think this is possible to do.
Of course, the example I gave assumes that Alice has the capability of self-modifying in the area of what she’s passionate about, and not in the area of how much money she needs to be happy, whereas in reality for many people it may be the other way around.
Okay, but depression is a condition that often causes laziness. I’m not sure exactly what part of the post you’re disagreeing with—if it’s the quoted text, then that was written by probably one of the world’s biggest contributors to the study of depression, so I don’t think you should try to correct him unless you have strong credentials.
I was specifically objecting to where you generalized depression and low self-esteem as being similar or having similar effects. I suspected a four-term syllogism error when you summarized the expert opinion.
I have different objections to the conclusions of the people who study depression, and I don’t recognize their contributions as constituting an authority that can be appealed to. That’s mostly because they have a track record of being unable to predict the effects of an intervention.
I suspect a large part of that is because they also frequently make the mistake of implicitly taking the same half-reductionist position you take in this comment.
That’s poor predictive ability regarding the result of an outcome.
The chemistry-as-cause belief is because the mechanism used to identify potential interventions is based on chemistry that is intended to make the brains harder to distinguish in destructive testing. Chemistry causing emotions and altering mental states is well documented and uncontroversial; depression being a chemical state with specific visible symptoms is exactly as strange as drunkenness being such a state.
The mistake I’m addressing, what I called “half-reductionist” in the parent, is the belief (or alief) that mental processes split into two types:
1) those that are reducible to physical/chemical processes and thus can only be analyzed or affected by chemicals,
2) those that aren’t reducible and thus are analyzed or affected by psychology.
My point is that this distinction doesn’t correspond to anything in reality.
How about 1) those that have been largely reduced to physical/chemical processes and thus can be analyzed or affected directly
2) those that have not yet been reduced and thus are handled differently.
First, why is this distinction relevant to the comment you made in the ancestor?
Second, the brain is a complicated system. Naively playing with the inner workings of a complicated system tends to result in all kinds of unintended consequences. In other words, just because we have some idea what chemical state corresponds to depression, doesn’t mean using chemicals is the best way to treat it.
It does mean that you shouldn’t conflate atypical serotonin levels with temporary loneliness after one’s cat died by calling both of those ‘depression’.
Do you have research that the temporary loneliness after one’s cat died does not in fact involve atypical serotonin levels?
Also why is this relevant. Your statement implied that the similarity cluster that includes laziness, lack of motivation, and akrasia does not include depression. Even if laziness say turns out to involve a different hormone, or some other chemical and/or physical process, I fail to see why that’s an argument against including depression in the same similarity cluster.
Oh, that argument is based entirely on the lack of similarity of those characteristics and their effects.
Which characteristics? I’m having trouble figuring out what the antecedents of your pronouns are supposed to be.
I phrased that poorly.
Depression, laziness, lack of motivation, and akrasia do not share many of their defining features. For the purpose of dealing with one or more of them, they are more different than they are similar.
To speak of them as similar, you need a context distant from them. If you are discussing personnel management in general , for example, they could be grouped together with disloyalty and family problems as potential characteristics of people that need to be taken into consideration. Once you get into the consideration that needs to be taken for a specific individual, treating depression the same as laziness provides bad outcomes.
They certainly have similar symptoms, i.e., difficulty getting oneself to do what one (or at least one’s higher brain functions) want to do. If your claim is that they have different underlying causes, I’d like to see what evidence convinced you of this.
Taboo laziness and lack of motivation.
For purpose of this discussion, let’s say the similarity cluster that correspond to how those phrases are commonly used.
So, character traits that result in someone choosing not to do something that someone else does, or having a suboptimal outcome?
Or did you refer to a common usage that isn’t common between us?
See my description in the great-grandparent:
Did you intend for that to be a subset of cognitive dissonance?
Not quite. Cognitive dissonance carries the connotation that one is engaging in rationalization to avoid facing it.
Not doublethink; the sense of “My observations of what I am doing right now are inconsistent with my decisions regarding what I am going to do right now.”