The problem is that the statistics don’t show the claimed bias. Normalized on a per-police-encounter basis, white cops (or cops-in-general) don’t appear to shoot black suspects more often than they shoot white suspects. However, police interact with black people more frequently, so the absolute proportion of black shooting victims is elevated.
The fact that the incidence of police encounters with blacks is elevated would be the actual social problem worth addressing, but the reasons for the elevated incidence of police-black encounters do not make a nice soundbite.
None of this is important of course because, as is usual for politics, the whole mess degenerates into cheerleading for your team and condemning the other team, and sensitive analysis of the actual evidence would be giving aid and comfort to the hated enemy.
The problem is that the statistics don’t show the claimed bias. Normalized on a per-police-encounter basis, white cops (or cops-in-general) don’t appear to shoot black suspects more often than they shoot white suspects. However, police interact with black people more frequently, so the absolute proportion of black shooting victims is elevated.
Can you provide any sources for this?
The fact that the incidence of police encounters with blacks is elevated would be the actual social problem worth addressing, but the reasons for the elevated incidence of police-black encounters do not make a nice soundbite.
Is the incidence of police encounters with blacks elevated?
For example, there were 4,636 murders committed by white people and 5,620 murders committed by black people in 2015 (source). On the per-capita basis this makes the by-white murder rate to be about 2.2 per 100,000 and the by-black murder rate to be about 16.2 per 100,000.
As with any complex phenomenon in a complex system, there is going to be a laundry list of contributing factors, none of which is the cause (in the sense that fixing just that cause will fix the entire problem). We can start with
Genetic factors (such as lower IQ)
Historical factors, which in turn flow into
Cultural factors (such as distrust of the government / law enforcement) and
Economic factors (from being poor to having a major presence in the drug trade)
The opinions about the relative weights of these factors are going to differ and in the current political climate I don’t think a reasonable open discussion is possible.
Historical factors, Cultural factors, Economic factors
Is it your view that past slavery in America still has a large impact on African Americans in the present day U.S.?
It seems obvious to me that it does, and that the effects are wide and deep, as slavery (and Jim Crow) is relatively recent history—We’re only a handful of generations from a time where a race of people was enslaved and systemically kept from accumulating wealth and education.
...I don’t think a reasonable open discussion is possible.
Meh. Maybe. I’d like to believe I’m a reasonable guy. My views on these issues are largely ignorant and I’m open to learning.
The raw data is plentiful—look at any standardized test scores (e.g. SAT) by race. For a full-blown argument in favor see e.g. this (I can’t check the link at the moment, it might be that you need to go to the Wayback Machine to access it). For a more, um, mainstream discussion see Charles Murray’s The Bell Curve. Wikipedia has more links you could pursue.
Is it your view that past slavery in America still has a large impact on African Americans in the present day U.S.?
My view is that history is important and that outcomes are path-dependent. Slavery and segregation are crucial parts of the history of American blacks.
open to learning
Your social circles might have a strong reaction to you coming to anything other than the approved conclusions...
Is it your view that past slavery in America still has a large impact on African Americans in the present day U.S.?
What do you mean with that question? How do you compare the present state of the US with a counterfactual US where African Americans weren’t in slavery?
I think it’s pretty easy to hypothesize about the possible effects of slavery vs. no slavery.
In the context of this thread, it was mentioned that the murder rate was much higher for blacks versus whites. If there are socioeconomic reasons for this, then I’m curious about slavery’s contribution to those factors.
Politically, I’m generally empathetic toward ideas like affirmative action in the U.S. on the basis of race because there has been serious discrimination in the U.S. on the basis of race in the past. It makes practical sense to posit it created a “headstart” for races who were not… enslaved… and otherwise discriminated against and it makes ethical sense to employ measures to even the score.
I’m open to the idea ideas like AA may not actually practically work and could be persuaded as such by the evidence.
I’m open to the idea ideas like AA may not actually practically work
While we are at the topic of cognitive biases, how do you know that’s the case? Quite many people believe that they are much more open than they are.
The fact that you for example didn’t follow up with the request to explain your own view in this thread is a sign that you don’t put effort into engaging in the kind of actions that require you to actually express your ideas explicitly enough to find flaws.
While we are at the topic of cognitive biases, how do you know that’s the case? Quite many people believe that they are much more open than they are.
I don’t know. I’m probably biased. But I feel pretty strongly that I’d like to know the truth. I’m sure I’m subject to the same deep, irrational Red v. Blue tribalism as most other humans, but I try to be as rational as I can.
The fact that you for example didn’t follow up with the request to explain your own view in this thread is a sign that you don’t put effort into engaging in the kind of actions that require you to actually express your ideas explicitly enough to find flaws.
Ah. I assumed your earlier comment in this thread was misplaced and you intended, “Lumifer: I, like Brillyant, am also interested in hearing your view.” I am flattered you care about my view.
As I mentioned, I consider myself ignorant on the issue. That is, quite literally, I admit I don’t know and have low confidence in my views..
I think I’ve eluded to those views in this thread...
Politically, I’m generally empathetic toward ideas like affirmative action in the U.S. on the basis of race because there has been serious discrimination in the U.S. on the basis of race in the past. It makes practical sense to posit it created a “headstart” for races who were not… enslaved… and otherwise discriminated against and it makes ethical sense to employ measures to even the score.
and
It seems obvious to me that [past slavery in America] does [have a large impact on African Americans in the present day U.S.], and that the effects are wide and deep, as slavery (and Jim Crow) is relatively recent history—We’re only a handful of generations from a time where a race of people was enslaved and systemically kept from accumulating wealth and education.
One premise is that if a significant deficit in, say, wealth or education is created for a group of people, then it will be a persistent disadvantage that causes that group of people to lag behind.
Another premise is that slavery wasn’t that long ago, relatively.
If, 150 years ago, we had person A start with $100,000 in inherited wealth, a solid education, a well-developed relevant skill in the marketplace, a well-established social and professional network, and a family with a good reputation. And then we had person B start with no money, no education, no marketable skills, no network, no family, no reputation...
If person A and B set out and lived their lives and had offspring, person A with the mentioned significant advantage over person B, I would imagine their offspring would be born into similar circumstances, with the offspring of person A maintaining an advantage over the offspring of person B because of all the obvious reasons people with advantages in wealth, education, etc. tend to maintain an advantage. The advantage may have narrowed (or maybe widened), but the advantage would be carried into the next generation.
Continue this forward 5-7 generations. What would we expect to see? I think we’d see line A maintain an advantage. The advantage may have narrowed (or maybe widened), but the advantage would be carried through generations.
Of course line B could “catch” and surpass line A. It’s easy to imagine exceptional scenarios. But it seems probable that line A would enjoy an ongoing advantage.
And this scenario assumes a level playing field for descendants of line A and line B. I don’t believe that’s been the case in America for blacks and whites. Since the end of slavery, there has been significant discrimination against blacks, much of which continues to the current day.
One premise is that if a significant deficit in, say, wealth or education is created for a group of people, then it will be a persistent disadvantage that causes that group of people to lag behind.
Sorry, doesn’t hold. Some more convincing studies examined the outcomes of Georgia land lotteries which were effectively a randomized controlled trial where the “intervention arm” got a valuable piece of land (by winning the lottery) and the “control arm” didn’t get anything. See e.g. this and other studies.
Now, if you have a continuing advantage (IQ) that continues to hold while your group mostly intermarries, things are different.
Culture, on the other hand, persists across generations relatively well.
By the way, while slavery was ended 150 year ago, segregation remained in force until after the WW2 and so is a much more recent phenomenon, within living memory.
Sorry, doesn’t hold. Some more convincing studies examined the outcomes of Georgia land lotteries which were effectively a randomized controlled trial where the “intervention arm” got a valuable piece of land (by winning the lottery) and the “control arm” didn’t get anything. See e.g. this and other studies.
Interesting.
In regard to the scenario (person A and person B) I gave above, I’m not sure your study refutes what I’m saying. Wealth can be squandered, sure. But wealth, along with a solid education, a well-developed relevant skill in the marketplace, a well-established social and professional network, and a family with a good reputation can be much more persistent.
The opportunity to have enough money to live and have free time plus a good basis for how to live and use that wealth can be sustained over generations.
I am who I am, in part, because of who my parents are. They taught me, for better or for worse, how to handle money; how to relate to people; how to study, work, play, etc. And my parents are who they are, in part, because of their parents. And so on. Generations of my family incubated the new generation’s growth into their own efforts to create sustainable wealth. Perhaps this is some of what you mean when you say...
Culture, on the other hand, persists across generations relatively well.
Can you give me some examples of what you mean by “culture persists across generations”?
By the way, while slavery was ended 150 year ago, segregation remained in force until after the WW2 and so is a much more recent phenomenon, within living memory.
Absolutely. And racism still persists and has an effect even today.
But wealth, along with a solid education, a well-developed relevant skill in the marketplace, a well-established social and professional network, and a family with a good reputation can be much more persistent.
The claim is that most of that is biology and heritable. Your ancestors had good genes (again, IQ but not only) which allowed them to gain a skill in the marketplace, construct a social network, create a family with good reputation, and acquire wealth. You have skills in the marketplace, able to adroitly navigate society, etc. primarily because you share genes with your ancestors, not because you inherited some money.
my parents … taught me
This is the nature vs nurture debate and lately the nature side has been winning. Who and what you are is considerably more determined by your genes rather than by your upbringing. Gwern posted about this here, on LW, or you can google up twin studies (studies of (genetically) identical twins who were separated at birth and brought up by different people in different circumstances).
Can you give me some examples of how “culture persists across generations”?
I’m not sure I believe genetics are more important than other factors. And this is not necessarily a simple nature vs. nurture issue. In the case of African Americans’ treatment in U.S. history, it’s an extreme set of “nurture” circumstances that robbed a group of people of all opportunity for many generations, based on race. I’m not sure “good genes” simply overcomes extremely lopsided (often systemically unfair) circumstances.
Anyway, it won’t be resolved here. Thanks for your thoughts.
I should clarify. I accept genes are a big part of the picture. I’m more of a nature guy in the debate between nature and nurture.
In the specific case of African Americans’ treatment in U.S. history and their current status, I’m not convinced genetics are more important than other factors. Because this specific case is more than just a simple nature vs. nurture issue—it is a very special case where an extreme deficit was created using slavery. And then segregation. And racism and discrimination all throughout up to the present day.
What evidence you cite above is compelling to you? What do you believed based on this evidence?
I’m not sure I believe genetics are more important than other factors.
You’ll have to be a bit more specific. “More important” for what and “other factors” from which set?
it’s an extreme set of “nurture” circumstances that robbed a group of people of all opportunity for many generations, based on race.
What do you think are transmission mechanisms which would show how having, say, great-great-grandparents who were slaves affects you now?
You might find it interesting to compare them to East European Jews who 150 years ago certainly weren’t slaves, but they were segregated and discriminated against, they faced limitations on what they could own, where could they live, and what could they do, plus once in a while a mob of angry peasants would come and burn down a village. They weren’t rich either.
Do you think the somewhat worse conditions of the American blacks explain the gap in outcomes looking at the present day?
“More important” for what and “other factors” from which set?
In regard to social issues, such as the murder rate by race you cited earlier, I’m not compelled to believe blacks are genetically wired to behave poorly and kill more often. Rather, as I’ve said, I believe there has been an extreme set of circumstances in the U.S. that have led to lots of problems.
What do you think are transmission mechanisms which would show how having, say, great-great-grandparents who were slaves affects you now?
As I’ve said—and as you’ve said by saying culture can be persistent through generations—I am who I am, in part, because of who my parents and family are. Of course, genetically. But there is more than this. Partly because of material wealth, partly because of availability of education and the opportunity to learn marketable skills, partly because of access to social and professional networks—Simply, there was a deficit created by slavery that takes a while to even out. Slavery wasn’t that long ago.
And again, even apart from slavery, there has been, and continues to be discrimination against African Americans in the U.S. Both legally through segregation and just plain old racism (implicit and explicit).
If we compare it to a 100 meter race, it’s not as if this was just a simple 20 meter head start for whites because of slavery; it’s also that hurdles have been placed every 10 meters in the African American lane through segregation and discrimination.
Do you think the somewhat worse conditions of the American blacks explain the gap in outcomes looking at the present day?
Imagine something like this type of discrimination is happening at all sorts of levels in the U.S.—Blacks are just less likely to be successful in a professional capacity simply because they discriminated against because are black, and apart from any consideration of actual merit.
So, it takes 15 resumes (instead of 10) to get a callback. Then the black candidate is 33% less likely to score an actual interview from that callback. Then 33% less likely to get to the second interview; 33% less likely to get to the 3rd and final interview.
Then they’re employed… How much less likely is it a black person receives a promotion? How much less do they make on average?
Edit: Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems you discount the idea slavery, segregation and discrimination has had ill effects for African Americans in the U.S. up to the present day...Why is that?
Partly because of material wealth, partly because of availability of education and the opportunity to learn marketable skills, partly because of access to social and professional networks
It’s not hard to find people whose ancestors 150 years ago were poor, uneducated, lacking skills and access to social networks… I think you’re just describing an average peasant. And yet, there are different outcomes.
you discount the idea slavery, segregation and discrimination has had ill effects for African Americans in the U.S. up to the present day...Why is that?
As I mentioned in my post upthread, I agree it’s a factor. I just don’t think it’s the sole factor or even the most important factor.
It’s not hard to find people whose ancestors 150 years ago were poor, uneducated, lacking skills and access to social networks… I think you’re just describing an average peasant. And yet, there are different outcomes.
Ongoing segregation and discrimination against blacks in America since slavery doesn’t seem to be making it into your math here. Why? It’s significant and should be considered.
And it’s not hard to imagine how “peasants” might do well when compared to former slaves...(1) being poor and being a slave are very different (2) It’s much tougher to segregate and discriminate when everybody looks basically the same. It’s easy when their skin color is different.
As I mentioned in my post upthread, I agree it’s a factor. I just don’t think it’s the sole factor or even the most important factor.
I don’t see any ongoing segregation (though, interestingly enough, some Black movements nowadays are trying to revive it, in some places even successfully).
I’ve mentioned Jews upthread—they were very consistently discriminated against until after the WW2. Did they have similar outcomes?
On the other hand you have SubSaharan Africa which is doing pretty badly by pretty much any criterion. That includes countries which were colonies only for a very very short period (such as Ethiopia, which is also mostly Christian and the former Emperor of which traced a direct lineage line to King Solomon and Queen of Sheba).
Do tell: What is the most important factor? Why?
Genetics, in particular IQ. Why? IQ is really really important.
Not backed by the gov’t through the present day but, as you mentioned, since WW2 and certainly long after slavery ended.
But discrimination based on race is still very common. I cited the study showing resumes with black sounding names receive significantly fewer callbacks than resumes with white sounding names...
You’ve not mentioned this study in your replies—Is this sort of discrimination not consequential in your view?
IQ is really really important.
As a bit of a thought experiment, can you imagine a scenario in a society where a high IQ group of people was discriminated against to the extent where they couldn’t overcome the discrimination, despite their advanced higher IQ?
How would the circumstances be different than what blacks have faced in the U.S.? How would they be similar?
Is this sort of discrimination not consequential in your view?
I don’t know about the study, I have a generic suspicion of social sciences studies, especially ones which come to highly convenient conclusions, and hey! they happen to have a what’s politely called “replication crisis”. I am not interested enough to go read the study and figure out if it’s valid, but on my general priors, I believe that people with black names will get less callbacks. However it seems to me that people with names like Pham Ng or Li Xiu Ying will also get less callbacks. People certainly have a bias towards those-like-me, but it’s not specifically anti-black, it’s against anyone who looks/feels/smells different.
can you imagine a scenario in a society where a high IQ group of people was discriminated against to the extent where they couldn’t overcome the discrimination, despite their advanced higher IQ?
Sure.
How would the circumstances be different than what blacks have faced in the U.S.?
Um, the IQ would be different? It’s not a mystical inner quality that no one can fathom. It’s measurable and on the scale of large groups of people the estimates gets pretty accurate.
On the clearly visible level there would be very obvious discrimination—quotas on admissions to universities, for examples. These discriminated-against people would be barred from reaching high positions, but at the level they would be allowed to reach they would be considered very valuable. Even if, for example, such people could not make it into management, managers would try to hire as many of them as possible because they are productive and solve problems.
As to similarities, I was about to write that the discriminated-against will never rise to the highest positions in the society, but oh look! there is that Barack Hussain fellow...
As an example of how such discrimination can be rational and indeed reasonable...
You have a resume. It provides some noisy data about someone. Including that person’s race. Let’s trim it down. You have an IQ test result and the person’s race. Let’s say that two candidates has the same IQ in the test, but one came from a group known to have a significantly lower IQ on average.
If we assume that an IQ test result has any measurement noise—and they do—then the Bayesian conclusion is the candidate from the group with higher average IQ is likely to actually have a higher IQ.
Now resumes constitute very noisy data. People often even lie in their resumes. There are large differences between groups in the US. The dispute is about the reasons for the differences not whether they exist.
A study would need to overcome these effects to demonstrate irrational discrimination. They would need to show that e.g. there was consistent out-performance for the group discriminated against post recruitment.
The two kinds of discrimination -- (1) because I prefer people-like-me, and (2) because I have informative priors about groups—can perfectly well co-exist.
People certainly have a bias towards those-like-me, but it’s not specifically anti-black, it’s against anyone who looks/feels/smells different.
It’s debatable whether or not it’s specifically anti-black. Or anti-some-other-group. At any rate, a bias against those-not-like-me would be sufficient in this case to cause blacks a significant deficit in opportunity for employment in a historically majority white nation.
Um, the IQ would be different?...
As usual, I phrased my comment poorly. Let me try a different tack...
You are saying black Americans have a genetic deficit in the form of lower average IQ. Because IQ is heritable and very important toward social “success”, this is a (or even the?) major factor in why they lag behind in certain social metrics (avg. income/wealth, crime rates, etc.) in American society.
I’m saying slavery/segregation/discrimination has created a very significant deficit for blacks to overcome in America, to the extent that we would expect to see something like we see in terms of the disparity in avg. income/wealth, crime rates, etc. I’d hypothesize slavery/segregation/discrimination has been consequential to the extent that even if blacks had a higher average IQ than whites, they would still be in a similar situation. (i.e. the discrimination is that bad and that significant.)
Plainly, advanced IQ (or other genetic advantages) aren’t enough to overcome significant discrimination in all cases. The disadvantages can be too steep in a given society.
I’d propose a good portion of the U.S. is a bit more racist than I think you are taking into consideration. And this may have caused a deeper deficit for blacks than you are appreciating.
As to similarities, I was about to write that the discriminated-against will never rise to the highest positions in the society, but oh look! there is that Barack Hussain fellow...
a bias against those-not-like-me would be sufficient in this case to cause blacks a significant deficit in opportunity for employment in a historically majority white nation.
Will it? I agree that it will cause some harm, but I’m not sure about “significant”. Note that race-based discrimination is explicitly illegal and agencies such as EEOC do prosecute. Moreover, EEOC uses the concept of “disparate impact” which basically means that if you statistically discriminate regardless of your intent, you are in trouble.
Also, did a bias against those-not-like-me cause employment problems for, say, the Chinese? Why not?
You are saying black Americans have a genetic deficit in the form of lower average IQ.
I am saying people with African ancestry (regardless of their citizenship) belong to a gene pool which has average IQ lower than that of people with European ancestry. Lest you think that the whites are the pinnacle of evolution, the European gene pool has lower average IQ than, say, Han Chinese.
I don’t know if “deficit” is a useful word—there is no natural baseline and the fact that the IQ scale has the average IQ of Europeans as the “norm” (100) is just a historical accident. I think it’s more correct to just say that different gene pools have different IQ distributions.
There are two separable questions here. The first one is do you agree that people with African ancestry have lower average IQ (by about one standard deviation) than people with European ancestry? That question has nothing to do with slavery and segregation. If you do not, we hit a major disagreement right here and there’s not much point in discussing why contemporary black Americans have different outcomes than whites or Asians. If you do, we can move on to the second question: what is the relative role of various factors which determine the current state of the black Americans?
I might suggest the following approach. If you agree that the average IQ of blacks is lower, then let’s estimate the effect of that on social outcomes. It might be that this cause will explain a great deal of what we observe. If so, there’s no need to bring in the history of slavery and segregation as a major factor because there wouldn’t be much left to explain.
I’d hypothesize slavery/segregation/discrimination has been consequential to the extent that even if blacks had a higher average IQ than whites, they would still be in a similar situation.
Ashkenazi Jews have higher average IQ than whites and were segregated and discrimated against. Are they in a similar situation? Were they in a similar situation at the time when the segregation was just ending?
Besides, you’re forgetting that one can just go and measure IQ. There is a lot of data on the average IQ of racial groups in the US. Hint: American blacks do not have higher IQ.
Plainly, advanced IQ (or other genetic advantages) aren’t enough to overcome significant discrimination in all cases.
Yes, but we’re not talking about “all cases”. We are talking about the very specific case of the United States of America.
Will it? I agree that it will cause some harm, but I’m not sure about “significant”.
I’d submit it’s a matter of definition.
Note that race-based discrimination is explicitly illegal and agencies such as EEOC do prosecute. Moreover, EEOC uses the concept of “disparate impact” which basically means that if you statistically discriminate regardless of your intent, you are in trouble.
Great point. I didn’t know this. I’ll have to do more reading. Generally though, I’d concede anti-discrimination laws have an impact.
Also, did a bias against those-not-like-me cause employment problems for, say, the Chinese? Why not?
Well, the Chinese weren’t enslaved. And it’s my experience there is not nearly as much racism against Asians as against blacks in America, but that is just my anecdotal experience.
I am saying people with African ancestry (regardless of their citizenship) belong to a gene pool which has average IQ lower than that of people with European ancestry. Lest you think that the whites are the pinnacle of evolution, the European gene pool has lower average IQ than, say, Han Chinese.
I’ve looked into this only briefly, and I’ll take your word for it.
There are two separable questions here. The first one is do you agree that people with African ancestry have lower average IQ (by about one standard deviation) than people with European ancestry? That question has nothing to do with slavery and segregation. If you do not, we hit a major disagreement right here and there’s not much point in discussing why contemporary black Americans have different outcomes than whites or Asians. If you do, we can move on to the second question: what is the relative role of various factors which determine the current state of the black Americans?
It makes sense to me to separate this into two questions like you propose. As I said, I’ll defer to your research and knowledge on the first point (and suspend my skepticism in the process), and move to your second question.
As to that second question—what is the relative role of various factors which determine the current state of the black Americans—I’m interested to know what you think, given your view that people with African ancestry have lower IQs...
I might suggest the following approach. If you agree that the average IQ of blacks is lower, then let’s estimate the effect of that on social outcomes. It might be that this cause will explain a great deal of what we observe. If so, there’s no need to bring in the history of slavery and segregation as a major factor because there wouldn’t be much left to explain.
...You’ve stated it’s complex, but roughly, what percentage of contemporary social outcomes experienced by blacks in America are a result of genetic differences (“nature”), and what percentage are a result of environmental factors (nurture)? Of that percentage that you deem to be the result of environmental factors, what portion is a result of slavery/segregation/discrimination? Again, just looking for a rough sketch from your mind here, as I recognize you have stated it’s complex and difficult to parse.
Also, I’m wondering how the idea people with African ancestry have lower average IQ than people with European ancestry informs your politics?
Well, you can probably go about it in the following way. IQ is and was a controversial concept. One of the lines of attack against it was that it is meaningless, that the number coming out of the IQ test does not correspond to anything in real life. This is often expressed as “IQ measures the skill of taking IQ tests”.
To deal with this objection people ran a number of studies. Typically you take a set of young people and either give them a proper IQ test or rely on another test which is a decent IQ proxy—usually the SAT in the US or one of the tests that the military gives to all its drafted or enlisted men. After that you follow that set of people and collect their life outcomes, from income to criminal records. Once you’ve done that you can see whether the measured IQ actually correlates to life outcomes. And yes, it does.
I don’t have links to actual studies handy, but you can easily google them up, and you can take a look at a not-fully-rigorous description of the various tiers of IQ and what do they mean in real-life terms.
Basically what these studies give you is the cost of an IQ point, cost in terms of a lot of things—income, chance to end up in prison, longevity (high-IQ people are noticeably healthier), etc.
Given this, you can calculate the expected outcomes for the US black population. If their average IQ is 10-15 points lower, you can translate this into expected income (lower than the US mean), expected chance of a criminal conviction (higher than the US mean) and other things you’re interested in. Once you’ve done that, you can compare your expected values with ones empirically observed. Any remaining gap will be due to something other than the IQ differential.
informs your politics
On a macro level it does not. There are smart people, there are stupid people, and the correlation to some outwardly visible feature like the colour of the skin doesn’t matter much. I am not a white nationalist, I do not think the Europeans should re-colonise Africa for the natives’ own good, etc.
On a micro level it does. For example, I find affirmative action counter-productive. For another example, I don’t believe the claims that inner-city schools (read: black) lag behind suburban schools (read: not black) because of lack of funding or because of surrounding poverty. Throwing money at the problem will achieve nothing.
There are smart people, there are stupid people, and the correlation to some outwardly visible feature like the colour of the skin doesn’t matter much.
How do you mean? You’re saying you believe it to be true that, generally, people with black skin color are more likely to have a significantly lower IQ than people with white skin color… And you believe that IQ is correlated with life outcomes. How can this not matter much?
I find affirmative action counter-productive.
I also have the sense this may be true in many instances. The theory seems solid, but I’m not sure it works as intended in practice.
For another example, I don’t believe the claims that inner-city schools (read: black) lag behind suburban schools (read: not black) because of lack of funding or because of surrounding poverty.
Why do they lag behind? Is it because of the IQ difference you believe exists between black and whites?
...
You say you’re not a white nationalist...I’m curious about your reaction to those who are? In regard to segregation, for instance… You say you don’t think the Europeans should re-colonise Africa for the natives’ own good—Why not?
Is it because of the IQ difference you believe exists between black and whites?
Lumifer likely believes that IQ predicts school performance and there are many studies that back this claim. He quite specifically said that you can calculate outcomes.
However not all white/black people are the same. Statements about the average IQ are statements about averages. Not all white have the same IQ and not all black people have the same IQ. Low IQ white people have low IQ children.
In Germany a white child named “Kevin” is likely to have a lower IQ than a child named “Jakob” and if you run your implicit bias tests you find that there’s bias against the child named “Kevin”.
Stupid people are still people. They have rights. Their propensity to make stupid decisions is not sufficient to take away from them the power to make decisions.
Is it because of the IQ difference you believe exists between black and whites?
Yes.
your reaction to those who are?
Is a shrug :-) People have all kinds of political beliefs, I don’t find the white nationalists to be extraordinary.
As to re-colonising Africa, see the first paragraph :-)
Hm. These views seem very likely to lead to racism.
I’ve read Breitbart frequently since Steve Bannon was added to Trump’s campaign because I’m fascinated with how Trump (an obvious hustler/fraud/charlatan in my view) has managed to get this close to the Oval Office. It’s been illuminating (in a disturbing way) in understanding where I now believe a lot of the Trump support is coming from.
I’m confident a portion of his support is just Red-Team-no-matter-what Repubs. And some are one issue Pro-Life Christians. And some are fiscal conservatives who are sincerely just concerned about the debt and spending. And some are blue collar workers in areas (Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc.) where the global economy/technology caused manufacturing to dry up decades ago and they are mad as hell about the facts of the world and will just keep voting to change something, anything until they day they die...
But there is also this (disturbingly large) element of the movement that think non-white people are less than white people. Like, this group of Trump supporters are literally white supremacists—they believe white people are better suited for civilization. And, of course, no one can say that and politically get away with it in 2016, so they use all sorts of dog whistle-y language to imply it—including the main Trumpian slogan, “Make America Great Again™”
Under a common definition of racism as belief in meaningful differences between races, these views are racism. So?
I mean “racism” in a way that is significantly consequential for those who are discriminated against. An active racism.
If there truly are meaningful genetic differences between races, then so be it. But that seems to be the justification for the portion of “white supremacist” Trump supporters I mentioned above. It’s an angry racism that seems likely to be problematic.
I’m saying slavery/segregation/discrimination has created a very significant deficit for blacks
Citation required. What is strange about this is that when you go looking, you don’t see good studies that track people through generations and show that this is in fact the case.
This idea “slavery is the cause” seems not to be an actual active idea but only functions as a thought terminating cliche.
It could have been slavery so it was.
It reminds me of religious apologists talking about the problem of evil, and how it ‘could’ be caused by man’s sin (causing human evil) and possibly by Satan’s sin (causing natural evil), which is required if we are to have free will. There is zero, I mean zero, interest in exploring just how ‘sin’ causes all the various forms of evil. How does sin cause our flawed DNA which allows cancer? Etc.
Citation required. What is strange about this is that when you go looking, you don’t see good studies that track people through generations and show that this is in fact the case.
The idea that slavery/segregation/discrimination has created a very significant deficit for blacks seems beyond dispute in my view. The words “very significant” could be disputed based on how we defined them, but that’s a technicality. I’m honestly shocked to hear this idea challenged...
It’s stated that “African-Americans are twice as likely as whites to be unemployed and they earn nearly 25 percent less when they are employed.” The study itself shows significant discrimination based on race in the beginning stages of the hiring process.
Lumifer seemed to accept the basic premise, but was nonetheless skeptical and too uninterested to look into the study. I’d be interested to know what you think.
Regardless, it is evidence that employers discriminate against blacks. And employment is tied to income...and wealth...and opportunity. And that is passed on generation after generation.
This idea “slavery is the cause” seems not to be an actual active idea but only functions as a thought terminating cliche. It could have been slavery so it was.
Again, it seems indisputable to me that slavery has an effect. Segregation and discrimination, too. I honestly don’t understand how it couldn’t. The only question that is left is in regard to the significance of the effect. And if there are other factors. I’d love to hear some of your evidence for other factors.
And as for this...
It reminds me of religious apologists talking about the problem of evil...
I strongly disagree. People being enslaved based on race for hundreds of years, segregated for a hundred more, and then discriminated against until the present day, and that leading to some problems within that race has zero, and I mean zero, to do with the concocted, magical-causal “explanations” of religion.
How about this...
Man A is freed from slavery at 40 with no skills, no education, no family and no professional or network.
Also at 40, man B has a small fortune, an education, is skilled in a trade, has a large family, a good reputation, and a wide network of business and social contacts.
Assuming the offspring of each man—A1 and B1—has identical DNA, which offspring has the highest probability of graduating from an elite university?
Which—A1 or B1—will be more likely to have a successful career?
Which will pass on the largest inheritance to A2 and B2?
Why?
And what do you expect to change in subsequent generations?
(One thing that could change are laws eliminating discrimination...)
This is about as weak as an argument can possibly get.
Again this is not evidence.
this study
Does not demonstrate irrational discrimination. They did not consider the possibility that a person’s race actually gives you useful information about them.
Consider the following example:
There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.… After all we have been through. Just to think we can’t walk down our own streets, how humiliating.
Remarks at a meeting of Operation PUSH in Chicago (27 November 1993). Quoted in “Crime: New Frontier—Jesse Jackson Calls It Top Civil-Rights Issue” by Mary A. Johnson, 29 November 1993, Chicago Sun-Times (ellipsis in original). Partially quoted in “In America; A Sea Change On Crime” by Bob Herbert, 12 December 1993, New York Times.
I have looked at the study before it is well known.
And if there are other factors. I’d love to hear some of your evidence for other factors.
IQ is known to be highly heritable and highly correlated with many measures of success. As are other psychological dimensions such as the Big 5. Source: any psychology textbook.
Perhaps you have heard the saying “rags to riches to rags in three generations”. When I look at my family tree I see this happening many times.
Where I live a lot of the local whites are descended from prisoners who were slaves. They do not form an underclass in any way shape or form. In fact it is high status to have convict ancestry.
Or consider Jews, against whom there was massive discrimination until very recently. They have been very successful.
This is about as weak as an argument can possibly get.
The idea that slavery/segregation/discrimination in America has had an effect is not in dispute. The argument is regarding it’s significance.
[Your hypothetical case study] is not evidence.
I fully agree. I was trying to distill the issue into simple terms. I would argue it’s nearly self evident that opportunity is passed on over generations, and that a head start for a group of people based on race could be persistent over multiple generations.
[The study you linked which shows resumes with black sounding names are less likely to receive callbacks for job opportunities than white sounding names] does not demonstrate irrational discrimination. They did not consider the possibility that a person’s race actually gives you useful information about them.
Are you saying it is appropriate for employers to discriminate based on race?
Jesse Jackson says something about his contrasting intuitions about black and white people...
Per capita murder rates are no doubt higher among blacks. The question is what caused this.
Perhaps you have heard the saying “rags to riches to rags in three generations”. When I look at my family tree I see this happening many times.
You are not being discriminated against (or segregated) as a minority race.
Where I live a lot of the local whites are descended from prisoners who were slaves. They do not form an underclass in any way shape or form. In fact it is high status to have convict ancestry.
They are not being discriminated against (or segregated) as a minority race.
Edit: Regarding evidence slavery having an effect on current day conditions… Here is a study showing “the 1860 slave concentration is related to contemporary black-white inequality in poverty, independent of contemporary demographic and economic conditions, racialized wealth disparities and racial threat. [This] research suggests the importance of slavery for shaping existing U.S. racial inequality patterns.”
Are you asking, “why do black people kill more people”? Isn’t that gonna vary on a case by case? Like, you don’t get murder orders from Skin Color Command. People kill for all sorts of reasons, or none at all.
The problem is that the statistics don’t show the claimed bias. Normalized on a per-police-encounter basis, white cops (or cops-in-general) don’t appear to shoot black suspects more often than they shoot white suspects. However, police interact with black people more frequently, so the absolute proportion of black shooting victims is elevated.
The fact that the incidence of police encounters with blacks is elevated would be the actual social problem worth addressing, but the reasons for the elevated incidence of police-black encounters do not make a nice soundbite.
None of this is important of course because, as is usual for politics, the whole mess degenerates into cheerleading for your team and condemning the other team, and sensitive analysis of the actual evidence would be giving aid and comfort to the hated enemy.
Can you provide any sources for this?
Is the incidence of police encounters with blacks elevated?
What are the reasons?
For example, there were 4,636 murders committed by white people and 5,620 murders committed by black people in 2015 (source). On the per-capita basis this makes the by-white murder rate to be about 2.2 per 100,000 and the by-black murder rate to be about 16.2 per 100,000.
Why is this?
You asked why is “the incidence of police encounters with blacks elevated”. This is a direct answer.
If you want to know the reasons for different crime rates, this is going to get long and complicated.
Can/will you TL;DR your view?
As with any complex phenomenon in a complex system, there is going to be a laundry list of contributing factors, none of which is the cause (in the sense that fixing just that cause will fix the entire problem). We can start with
Genetic factors (such as lower IQ)
Historical factors, which in turn flow into
Cultural factors (such as distrust of the government / law enforcement) and
Economic factors (from being poor to having a major presence in the drug trade)
The opinions about the relative weights of these factors are going to differ and in the current political climate I don’t think a reasonable open discussion is possible.
What is the best source for this in your view?
Is it your view that past slavery in America still has a large impact on African Americans in the present day U.S.?
It seems obvious to me that it does, and that the effects are wide and deep, as slavery (and Jim Crow) is relatively recent history—We’re only a handful of generations from a time where a race of people was enslaved and systemically kept from accumulating wealth and education.
Meh. Maybe. I’d like to believe I’m a reasonable guy. My views on these issues are largely ignorant and I’m open to learning.
The raw data is plentiful—look at any standardized test scores (e.g. SAT) by race. For a full-blown argument in favor see e.g. this (I can’t check the link at the moment, it might be that you need to go to the Wayback Machine to access it). For a more, um, mainstream discussion see Charles Murray’s The Bell Curve. Wikipedia has more links you could pursue.
My view is that history is important and that outcomes are path-dependent. Slavery and segregation are crucial parts of the history of American blacks.
Your social circles might have a strong reaction to you coming to anything other than the approved conclusions...
What do you mean with that question? How do you compare the present state of the US with a counterfactual US where African Americans weren’t in slavery?
I think it’s pretty easy to hypothesize about the possible effects of slavery vs. no slavery.
In the context of this thread, it was mentioned that the murder rate was much higher for blacks versus whites. If there are socioeconomic reasons for this, then I’m curious about slavery’s contribution to those factors.
Politically, I’m generally empathetic toward ideas like affirmative action in the U.S. on the basis of race because there has been serious discrimination in the U.S. on the basis of race in the past. It makes practical sense to posit it created a “headstart” for races who were not… enslaved… and otherwise discriminated against and it makes ethical sense to employ measures to even the score.
I’m open to the idea ideas like AA may not actually practically work and could be persuaded as such by the evidence.
While we are at the topic of cognitive biases, how do you know that’s the case? Quite many people believe that they are much more open than they are.
The fact that you for example didn’t follow up with the request to explain your own view in this thread is a sign that you don’t put effort into engaging in the kind of actions that require you to actually express your ideas explicitly enough to find flaws.
I don’t know. I’m probably biased. But I feel pretty strongly that I’d like to know the truth. I’m sure I’m subject to the same deep, irrational Red v. Blue tribalism as most other humans, but I try to be as rational as I can.
Ah. I assumed your earlier comment in this thread was misplaced and you intended, “Lumifer: I, like Brillyant, am also interested in hearing your view.” I am flattered you care about my view.
As I mentioned, I consider myself ignorant on the issue. That is, quite literally, I admit I don’t know and have low confidence in my views..
I think I’ve eluded to those views in this thread...
and
What more would you like to know?
What are the causal steps in between slavery that happened 150 years ago and the present state?
One premise is that if a significant deficit in, say, wealth or education is created for a group of people, then it will be a persistent disadvantage that causes that group of people to lag behind.
Another premise is that slavery wasn’t that long ago, relatively.
If, 150 years ago, we had person A start with $100,000 in inherited wealth, a solid education, a well-developed relevant skill in the marketplace, a well-established social and professional network, and a family with a good reputation. And then we had person B start with no money, no education, no marketable skills, no network, no family, no reputation...
If person A and B set out and lived their lives and had offspring, person A with the mentioned significant advantage over person B, I would imagine their offspring would be born into similar circumstances, with the offspring of person A maintaining an advantage over the offspring of person B because of all the obvious reasons people with advantages in wealth, education, etc. tend to maintain an advantage. The advantage may have narrowed (or maybe widened), but the advantage would be carried into the next generation.
Continue this forward 5-7 generations. What would we expect to see? I think we’d see line A maintain an advantage. The advantage may have narrowed (or maybe widened), but the advantage would be carried through generations.
Of course line B could “catch” and surpass line A. It’s easy to imagine exceptional scenarios. But it seems probable that line A would enjoy an ongoing advantage.
And this scenario assumes a level playing field for descendants of line A and line B. I don’t believe that’s been the case in America for blacks and whites. Since the end of slavery, there has been significant discrimination against blacks, much of which continues to the current day.
Sorry, doesn’t hold. Some more convincing studies examined the outcomes of Georgia land lotteries which were effectively a randomized controlled trial where the “intervention arm” got a valuable piece of land (by winning the lottery) and the “control arm” didn’t get anything. See e.g. this and other studies.
Now, if you have a continuing advantage (IQ) that continues to hold while your group mostly intermarries, things are different.
Culture, on the other hand, persists across generations relatively well.
By the way, while slavery was ended 150 year ago, segregation remained in force until after the WW2 and so is a much more recent phenomenon, within living memory.
Interesting.
In regard to the scenario (person A and person B) I gave above, I’m not sure your study refutes what I’m saying. Wealth can be squandered, sure. But wealth, along with a solid education, a well-developed relevant skill in the marketplace, a well-established social and professional network, and a family with a good reputation can be much more persistent.
The opportunity to have enough money to live and have free time plus a good basis for how to live and use that wealth can be sustained over generations.
I am who I am, in part, because of who my parents are. They taught me, for better or for worse, how to handle money; how to relate to people; how to study, work, play, etc. And my parents are who they are, in part, because of their parents. And so on. Generations of my family incubated the new generation’s growth into their own efforts to create sustainable wealth. Perhaps this is some of what you mean when you say...
Can you give me some examples of what you mean by “culture persists across generations”?
Absolutely. And racism still persists and has an effect even today.
The claim is that most of that is biology and heritable. Your ancestors had good genes (again, IQ but not only) which allowed them to gain a skill in the marketplace, construct a social network, create a family with good reputation, and acquire wealth. You have skills in the marketplace, able to adroitly navigate society, etc. primarily because you share genes with your ancestors, not because you inherited some money.
This is the nature vs nurture debate and lately the nature side has been winning. Who and what you are is considerably more determined by your genes rather than by your upbringing. Gwern posted about this here, on LW, or you can google up twin studies (studies of (genetically) identical twins who were separated at birth and brought up by different people in different circumstances).
See e.g. Yvain’s review of Albion’s Seed.
I accept genes are a big part of the picture.
I’m not sure I believe genetics are more important than other factors. And this is not necessarily a simple nature vs. nurture issue. In the case of African Americans’ treatment in U.S. history, it’s an extreme set of “nurture” circumstances that robbed a group of people of all opportunity for many generations, based on race. I’m not sure “good genes” simply overcomes extremely lopsided (often systemically unfair) circumstances.
Anyway, it won’t be resolved here. Thanks for your thoughts.
I suggest you examine the evidence offered above and consider reducing your confidence in your beliefs.
I should clarify. I accept genes are a big part of the picture. I’m more of a nature guy in the debate between nature and nurture.
In the specific case of African Americans’ treatment in U.S. history and their current status, I’m not convinced genetics are more important than other factors. Because this specific case is more than just a simple nature vs. nurture issue—it is a very special case where an extreme deficit was created using slavery. And then segregation. And racism and discrimination all throughout up to the present day.
What evidence you cite above is compelling to you? What do you believed based on this evidence?
You’ll have to be a bit more specific. “More important” for what and “other factors” from which set?
What do you think are transmission mechanisms which would show how having, say, great-great-grandparents who were slaves affects you now?
You might find it interesting to compare them to East European Jews who 150 years ago certainly weren’t slaves, but they were segregated and discriminated against, they faced limitations on what they could own, where could they live, and what could they do, plus once in a while a mob of angry peasants would come and burn down a village. They weren’t rich either.
Do you think the somewhat worse conditions of the American blacks explain the gap in outcomes looking at the present day?
In regard to social issues, such as the murder rate by race you cited earlier, I’m not compelled to believe blacks are genetically wired to behave poorly and kill more often. Rather, as I’ve said, I believe there has been an extreme set of circumstances in the U.S. that have led to lots of problems.
As I’ve said—and as you’ve said by saying culture can be persistent through generations—I am who I am, in part, because of who my parents and family are. Of course, genetically. But there is more than this. Partly because of material wealth, partly because of availability of education and the opportunity to learn marketable skills, partly because of access to social and professional networks—Simply, there was a deficit created by slavery that takes a while to even out. Slavery wasn’t that long ago.
And again, even apart from slavery, there has been, and continues to be discrimination against African Americans in the U.S. Both legally through segregation and just plain old racism (implicit and explicit).
If we compare it to a 100 meter race, it’s not as if this was just a simple 20 meter head start for whites because of slavery; it’s also that hurdles have been placed every 10 meters in the African American lane through segregation and discrimination.
This is my view, yes. See above.
I cited this earlier.
Imagine something like this type of discrimination is happening at all sorts of levels in the U.S.—Blacks are just less likely to be successful in a professional capacity simply because they discriminated against because are black, and apart from any consideration of actual merit.
So, it takes 15 resumes (instead of 10) to get a callback. Then the black candidate is 33% less likely to score an actual interview from that callback. Then 33% less likely to get to the second interview; 33% less likely to get to the 3rd and final interview.
Then they’re employed… How much less likely is it a black person receives a promotion? How much less do they make on average?
Edit: Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems you discount the idea slavery, segregation and discrimination has had ill effects for African Americans in the U.S. up to the present day...Why is that?
It’s not hard to find people whose ancestors 150 years ago were poor, uneducated, lacking skills and access to social networks… I think you’re just describing an average peasant. And yet, there are different outcomes.
As I mentioned in my post upthread, I agree it’s a factor. I just don’t think it’s the sole factor or even the most important factor.
Ongoing segregation and discrimination against blacks in America since slavery doesn’t seem to be making it into your math here. Why? It’s significant and should be considered.
And it’s not hard to imagine how “peasants” might do well when compared to former slaves...(1) being poor and being a slave are very different (2) It’s much tougher to segregate and discriminate when everybody looks basically the same. It’s easy when their skin color is different.
Do tell: What is the most important factor? Why?
I don’t see any ongoing segregation (though, interestingly enough, some Black movements nowadays are trying to revive it, in some places even successfully).
I’ve mentioned Jews upthread—they were very consistently discriminated against until after the WW2. Did they have similar outcomes?
On the other hand you have SubSaharan Africa which is doing pretty badly by pretty much any criterion. That includes countries which were colonies only for a very very short period (such as Ethiopia, which is also mostly Christian and the former Emperor of which traced a direct lineage line to King Solomon and Queen of Sheba).
Genetics, in particular IQ. Why? IQ is really really important.
Not backed by the gov’t through the present day but, as you mentioned, since WW2 and certainly long after slavery ended.
But discrimination based on race is still very common. I cited the study showing resumes with black sounding names receive significantly fewer callbacks than resumes with white sounding names...
You’ve not mentioned this study in your replies—Is this sort of discrimination not consequential in your view?
As a bit of a thought experiment, can you imagine a scenario in a society where a high IQ group of people was discriminated against to the extent where they couldn’t overcome the discrimination, despite their advanced higher IQ?
How would the circumstances be different than what blacks have faced in the U.S.? How would they be similar?
I don’t know about the study, I have a generic suspicion of social sciences studies, especially ones which come to highly convenient conclusions, and hey! they happen to have a what’s politely called “replication crisis”. I am not interested enough to go read the study and figure out if it’s valid, but on my general priors, I believe that people with black names will get less callbacks. However it seems to me that people with names like Pham Ng or Li Xiu Ying will also get less callbacks. People certainly have a bias towards those-like-me, but it’s not specifically anti-black, it’s against anyone who looks/feels/smells different.
Sure.
Um, the IQ would be different? It’s not a mystical inner quality that no one can fathom. It’s measurable and on the scale of large groups of people the estimates gets pretty accurate.
On the clearly visible level there would be very obvious discrimination—quotas on admissions to universities, for examples. These discriminated-against people would be barred from reaching high positions, but at the level they would be allowed to reach they would be considered very valuable. Even if, for example, such people could not make it into management, managers would try to hire as many of them as possible because they are productive and solve problems.
As to similarities, I was about to write that the discriminated-against will never rise to the highest positions in the society, but oh look! there is that Barack Hussain fellow...
As an example of how such discrimination can be rational and indeed reasonable...
You have a resume. It provides some noisy data about someone. Including that person’s race. Let’s trim it down. You have an IQ test result and the person’s race. Let’s say that two candidates has the same IQ in the test, but one came from a group known to have a significantly lower IQ on average.
If we assume that an IQ test result has any measurement noise—and they do—then the Bayesian conclusion is the candidate from the group with higher average IQ is likely to actually have a higher IQ.
Now resumes constitute very noisy data. People often even lie in their resumes. There are large differences between groups in the US. The dispute is about the reasons for the differences not whether they exist.
A study would need to overcome these effects to demonstrate irrational discrimination. They would need to show that e.g. there was consistent out-performance for the group discriminated against post recruitment.
The two kinds of discrimination -- (1) because I prefer people-like-me, and (2) because I have informative priors about groups—can perfectly well co-exist.
It’s debatable whether or not it’s specifically anti-black. Or anti-some-other-group. At any rate, a bias against those-not-like-me would be sufficient in this case to cause blacks a significant deficit in opportunity for employment in a historically majority white nation.
As usual, I phrased my comment poorly. Let me try a different tack...
You are saying black Americans have a genetic deficit in the form of lower average IQ. Because IQ is heritable and very important toward social “success”, this is a (or even the?) major factor in why they lag behind in certain social metrics (avg. income/wealth, crime rates, etc.) in American society.
I’m saying slavery/segregation/discrimination has created a very significant deficit for blacks to overcome in America, to the extent that we would expect to see something like we see in terms of the disparity in avg. income/wealth, crime rates, etc. I’d hypothesize slavery/segregation/discrimination has been consequential to the extent that even if blacks had a higher average IQ than whites, they would still be in a similar situation. (i.e. the discrimination is that bad and that significant.)
Plainly, advanced IQ (or other genetic advantages) aren’t enough to overcome significant discrimination in all cases. The disadvantages can be too steep in a given society.
I’d propose a good portion of the U.S. is a bit more racist than I think you are taking into consideration. And this may have caused a deeper deficit for blacks than you are appreciating.
Things can change. Slowly.
Will it? I agree that it will cause some harm, but I’m not sure about “significant”. Note that race-based discrimination is explicitly illegal and agencies such as EEOC do prosecute. Moreover, EEOC uses the concept of “disparate impact” which basically means that if you statistically discriminate regardless of your intent, you are in trouble.
Also, did a bias against those-not-like-me cause employment problems for, say, the Chinese? Why not?
I am saying people with African ancestry (regardless of their citizenship) belong to a gene pool which has average IQ lower than that of people with European ancestry. Lest you think that the whites are the pinnacle of evolution, the European gene pool has lower average IQ than, say, Han Chinese.
I don’t know if “deficit” is a useful word—there is no natural baseline and the fact that the IQ scale has the average IQ of Europeans as the “norm” (100) is just a historical accident. I think it’s more correct to just say that different gene pools have different IQ distributions.
There are two separable questions here. The first one is do you agree that people with African ancestry have lower average IQ (by about one standard deviation) than people with European ancestry? That question has nothing to do with slavery and segregation. If you do not, we hit a major disagreement right here and there’s not much point in discussing why contemporary black Americans have different outcomes than whites or Asians. If you do, we can move on to the second question: what is the relative role of various factors which determine the current state of the black Americans?
I might suggest the following approach. If you agree that the average IQ of blacks is lower, then let’s estimate the effect of that on social outcomes. It might be that this cause will explain a great deal of what we observe. If so, there’s no need to bring in the history of slavery and segregation as a major factor because there wouldn’t be much left to explain.
Ashkenazi Jews have higher average IQ than whites and were segregated and discrimated against. Are they in a similar situation? Were they in a similar situation at the time when the segregation was just ending?
Besides, you’re forgetting that one can just go and measure IQ. There is a lot of data on the average IQ of racial groups in the US. Hint: American blacks do not have higher IQ.
Yes, but we’re not talking about “all cases”. We are talking about the very specific case of the United States of America.
Um, things have changed. Already.
I’d submit it’s a matter of definition.
Great point. I didn’t know this. I’ll have to do more reading. Generally though, I’d concede anti-discrimination laws have an impact.
Well, the Chinese weren’t enslaved. And it’s my experience there is not nearly as much racism against Asians as against blacks in America, but that is just my anecdotal experience.
I’ve looked into this only briefly, and I’ll take your word for it.
It makes sense to me to separate this into two questions like you propose. As I said, I’ll defer to your research and knowledge on the first point (and suspend my skepticism in the process), and move to your second question.
As to that second question—what is the relative role of various factors which determine the current state of the black Americans—I’m interested to know what you think, given your view that people with African ancestry have lower IQs...
...You’ve stated it’s complex, but roughly, what percentage of contemporary social outcomes experienced by blacks in America are a result of genetic differences (“nature”), and what percentage are a result of environmental factors (nurture)? Of that percentage that you deem to be the result of environmental factors, what portion is a result of slavery/segregation/discrimination? Again, just looking for a rough sketch from your mind here, as I recognize you have stated it’s complex and difficult to parse.
Also, I’m wondering how the idea people with African ancestry have lower average IQ than people with European ancestry informs your politics?
Well, you can probably go about it in the following way. IQ is and was a controversial concept. One of the lines of attack against it was that it is meaningless, that the number coming out of the IQ test does not correspond to anything in real life. This is often expressed as “IQ measures the skill of taking IQ tests”.
To deal with this objection people ran a number of studies. Typically you take a set of young people and either give them a proper IQ test or rely on another test which is a decent IQ proxy—usually the SAT in the US or one of the tests that the military gives to all its drafted or enlisted men. After that you follow that set of people and collect their life outcomes, from income to criminal records. Once you’ve done that you can see whether the measured IQ actually correlates to life outcomes. And yes, it does.
I don’t have links to actual studies handy, but you can easily google them up, and you can take a look at a not-fully-rigorous description of the various tiers of IQ and what do they mean in real-life terms.
Basically what these studies give you is the cost of an IQ point, cost in terms of a lot of things—income, chance to end up in prison, longevity (high-IQ people are noticeably healthier), etc.
Given this, you can calculate the expected outcomes for the US black population. If their average IQ is 10-15 points lower, you can translate this into expected income (lower than the US mean), expected chance of a criminal conviction (higher than the US mean) and other things you’re interested in. Once you’ve done that, you can compare your expected values with ones empirically observed. Any remaining gap will be due to something other than the IQ differential.
On a macro level it does not. There are smart people, there are stupid people, and the correlation to some outwardly visible feature like the colour of the skin doesn’t matter much. I am not a white nationalist, I do not think the Europeans should re-colonise Africa for the natives’ own good, etc.
On a micro level it does. For example, I find affirmative action counter-productive. For another example, I don’t believe the claims that inner-city schools (read: black) lag behind suburban schools (read: not black) because of lack of funding or because of surrounding poverty. Throwing money at the problem will achieve nothing.
How do you mean? You’re saying you believe it to be true that, generally, people with black skin color are more likely to have a significantly lower IQ than people with white skin color… And you believe that IQ is correlated with life outcomes. How can this not matter much?
I also have the sense this may be true in many instances. The theory seems solid, but I’m not sure it works as intended in practice.
Why do they lag behind? Is it because of the IQ difference you believe exists between black and whites?
...
You say you’re not a white nationalist...I’m curious about your reaction to those who are? In regard to segregation, for instance… You say you don’t think the Europeans should re-colonise Africa for the natives’ own good—Why not?
Lumifer likely believes that IQ predicts school performance and there are many studies that back this claim. He quite specifically said that you can calculate outcomes.
However not all white/black people are the same. Statements about the average IQ are statements about averages. Not all white have the same IQ and not all black people have the same IQ. Low IQ white people have low IQ children.
In Germany a white child named “Kevin” is likely to have a lower IQ than a child named “Jakob” and if you run your implicit bias tests you find that there’s bias against the child named “Kevin”.
Stupid people are still people. They have rights. Their propensity to make stupid decisions is not sufficient to take away from them the power to make decisions.
Yes.
Is a shrug :-) People have all kinds of political beliefs, I don’t find the white nationalists to be extraordinary.
As to re-colonising Africa, see the first paragraph :-)
Hm. These views seem very likely to lead to racism.
I’ve read Breitbart frequently since Steve Bannon was added to Trump’s campaign because I’m fascinated with how Trump (an obvious hustler/fraud/charlatan in my view) has managed to get this close to the Oval Office. It’s been illuminating (in a disturbing way) in understanding where I now believe a lot of the Trump support is coming from.
I’m confident a portion of his support is just Red-Team-no-matter-what Repubs. And some are one issue Pro-Life Christians. And some are fiscal conservatives who are sincerely just concerned about the debt and spending. And some are blue collar workers in areas (Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc.) where the global economy/technology caused manufacturing to dry up decades ago and they are mad as hell about the facts of the world and will just keep voting to change something, anything until they day they die...
But there is also this (disturbingly large) element of the movement that think non-white people are less than white people. Like, this group of Trump supporters are literally white supremacists—they believe white people are better suited for civilization. And, of course, no one can say that and politically get away with it in 2016, so they use all sorts of dog whistle-y language to imply it—including the main Trumpian slogan, “Make America Great Again™”
LOL. “Could lead to dancing”.
Under a common definition of racism as belief in meaningful differences between races, these views are racism. So?
I mean “racism” in a way that is significantly consequential for those who are discriminated against. An active racism.
If there truly are meaningful genetic differences between races, then so be it. But that seems to be the justification for the portion of “white supremacist” Trump supporters I mentioned above. It’s an angry racism that seems likely to be problematic.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.
Citation required. What is strange about this is that when you go looking, you don’t see good studies that track people through generations and show that this is in fact the case.
This idea “slavery is the cause” seems not to be an actual active idea but only functions as a thought terminating cliche.
It could have been slavery so it was.
It reminds me of religious apologists talking about the problem of evil, and how it ‘could’ be caused by man’s sin (causing human evil) and possibly by Satan’s sin (causing natural evil), which is required if we are to have free will. There is zero, I mean zero, interest in exploring just how ‘sin’ causes all the various forms of evil. How does sin cause our flawed DNA which allows cancer? Etc.
The idea that slavery/segregation/discrimination has created a very significant deficit for blacks seems beyond dispute in my view. The words “very significant” could be disputed based on how we defined them, but that’s a technicality. I’m honestly shocked to hear this idea challenged...
I’ve cited this study.
It’s stated that “African-Americans are twice as likely as whites to be unemployed and they earn nearly 25 percent less when they are employed.” The study itself shows significant discrimination based on race in the beginning stages of the hiring process.
Lumifer seemed to accept the basic premise, but was nonetheless skeptical and too uninterested to look into the study. I’d be interested to know what you think.
Regardless, it is evidence that employers discriminate against blacks. And employment is tied to income...and wealth...and opportunity. And that is passed on generation after generation.
Again, it seems indisputable to me that slavery has an effect. Segregation and discrimination, too. I honestly don’t understand how it couldn’t. The only question that is left is in regard to the significance of the effect. And if there are other factors. I’d love to hear some of your evidence for other factors.
And as for this...
I strongly disagree. People being enslaved based on race for hundreds of years, segregated for a hundred more, and then discriminated against until the present day, and that leading to some problems within that race has zero, and I mean zero, to do with the concocted, magical-causal “explanations” of religion.
How about this...
Man A is freed from slavery at 40 with no skills, no education, no family and no professional or network.
Also at 40, man B has a small fortune, an education, is skilled in a trade, has a large family, a good reputation, and a wide network of business and social contacts.
Assuming the offspring of each man—A1 and B1—has identical DNA, which offspring has the highest probability of graduating from an elite university?
Which—A1 or B1—will be more likely to have a successful career?
Which will pass on the largest inheritance to A2 and B2?
Why?
And what do you expect to change in subsequent generations?
(One thing that could change are laws eliminating discrimination...)
This is about as weak as an argument can possibly get.
Again this is not evidence.
Does not demonstrate irrational discrimination. They did not consider the possibility that a person’s race actually gives you useful information about them.
Consider the following example:
I have looked at the study before it is well known.
IQ is known to be highly heritable and highly correlated with many measures of success. As are other psychological dimensions such as the Big 5. Source: any psychology textbook.
Perhaps you have heard the saying “rags to riches to rags in three generations”. When I look at my family tree I see this happening many times.
Where I live a lot of the local whites are descended from prisoners who were slaves. They do not form an underclass in any way shape or form. In fact it is high status to have convict ancestry.
Or consider Jews, against whom there was massive discrimination until very recently. They have been very successful.
The idea that slavery/segregation/discrimination in America has had an effect is not in dispute. The argument is regarding it’s significance.
I fully agree. I was trying to distill the issue into simple terms. I would argue it’s nearly self evident that opportunity is passed on over generations, and that a head start for a group of people based on race could be persistent over multiple generations.
Are you saying it is appropriate for employers to discriminate based on race?
Per capita murder rates are no doubt higher among blacks. The question is what caused this.
You are not being discriminated against (or segregated) as a minority race.
They are not being discriminated against (or segregated) as a minority race.
Edit: Regarding evidence slavery having an effect on current day conditions… Here is a study showing “the 1860 slave concentration is related to contemporary black-white inequality in poverty, independent of contemporary demographic and economic conditions, racialized wealth disparities and racial threat. [This] research suggests the importance of slavery for shaping existing U.S. racial inequality patterns.”
I would also be interested in your view.
Are you asking, “why do black people kill more people”? Isn’t that gonna vary on a case by case? Like, you don’t get murder orders from Skin Color Command. People kill for all sorts of reasons, or none at all.
Source: http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399
What are the reasons? Well, beginning with the discovery of the North American continent 1492 …