How is a mandate better at avoiding “constant legal battles” than e.g. a tax?
Fair point, both definitely lead to legal battles. I didn’t mean to compare it to a tax, I meant to compare it to a subsidy on corrective measures (contra the point on not having unfunded mandates specifically) in the case of negative externalities being the reason for the mandate. I think there is a good argument for a general principle in most cases of not subsidizing bad actors for stopping causing harm. The “legal battles” in meant were the idea of private actors using the courts to recoup their losses, which is something I often hear from libertarians but rarely workes in practice.
I agree that having everything out in the open (n hidden taxes) is almost always better as far as taxes and laws go. When that doesn’t happen, I usually assume it’s a kludge for getting around a political block that makes no sense from an “optimize the general welfare” perspective.
I also don’t think any MMTers think taxes should be zero, sorry if I implied anything like that. But “avoiding introducing economic distortions” is, to me, not an obvious goal for a tax policy. I also disagree with your claim that VAT and flat tax achieve or even approach it. A poll tax distorts in favor of the rich, a flat tax or VAT doesn’t account for the declining marginal value of money to individuals (regressive in utility if not dollars), a progressive income tax leads to arguments over rates and brackets, a capital gains tax disincentivizes savings and investment, and so on.
This only works if the businesses are earning more than $7.25/hr in profit per employee. Otherwise, it drives businesses in low productivity areas into bankruptcy and forces those workers into unemployment. This is precisely the argument against a minimum wage and in favor of a UBI.
Yes, but for the same reason I don’t see how this is a difference between a minimum wage (unfunded mandate) and a tax equal to the difference between market wage and minimum equal. Believe me, I would much rather have a UBI in place than a minimum wage, if that choice were in front of me.
I think there is a good argument for a general principle in most cases of not subsidizing bad actors for stopping causing harm.
A carbon tax refunded in the from of a UBI is economically equivalent to a “low carbon subsidy” in which each citizen is paid for the amount of carbon they consume below the defined threshold. In one case we are “penalizing bad behavior” in the other we are “subsidizing people for avoiding bad behavior”.
I agree that for the sake of optics we should “tax bad things” and “subsidize good ones” but from an economic point of view this is irrelevant.
But “avoiding introducing economic distortions” is, to me, not an obvious goal for a tax policy
Given two tax systems which produce the same amount of “income” for the government, we should prefer the one which leads to higher welfare overall. This is why, for example, raising all of a government’s income from tariffs is bad, because it uneconomically disadvantages imports leading to a less efficient economy overall.
A poll tax distorts in favor of the rich, a flat tax or VAT doesn’t account for the declining marginal value of money to individuals (regressive in utility if not dollars)
I was suggesting a flat tax on income or consumption (VAT). These should be identical over a lifetime. A poll tax would be bad for obvious reasons.
I think that we should solve for “regressiveness” by doing a UBI, not by messing with the tax code.
WRT “declining marginal utility of money”, I think this is over hyped. Rich people don’t consume dramatically more than those in the middle class. To the extent that they spend their “excess” income on charity or investment, the marginal utility of those dollars is possibly higher than giving the same money to a already well-off middle class family.
I would much rather have a UBI in place than a minimum wage, if that choice were in front of me.
WRT “declining marginal utility of money”, I think this is over hyped. Rich people don’t consume dramatically more than those in the middle class. To the extent that they spend their “excess” income on charity or investment, the marginal utility of those dollars is possibly higher than giving the same money to a already well-off middle class family.
Utility to whom? The point is that the utility of an extra dollar to an individualdeclines in relation to how much money that individual has already. It’s not aggregate utility, as in utilitarianism. The fact that wealthy people are willing to give their excess money away shows that it doesn’t have that much utility to them, in line with the “declining marginal utility of money” ,andthe fact that doing so increaes overall utility shows that money has more utility to the poor, which is the flipside of the declining marginal utility of money—it has more utility if you have less of it already.
WRT “declining marginal utility of money”, I think this is over hyped. Rich people don’t consume dramatically more than those in the middle class. To the extent that they spend their “excess” income on charity or investment, the marginal utility of those dollars is possibly higher than giving the same money to a already well-off middle class family.
First, there are more than two levels here. UBI would alleviate a lot of suffering for the poor and working class, but realistically the middle class (definitions vary, but Pew defines it as 2/3x to 2x the local median income, so I’ll go with that) will have to see no change or a decrease, since creating a UBI doesn’t create net income in the economy (and that range includes mean as well as median income, and a UBI would bring those two numbers closer together).
And if you truly believe that wealthy people’s charity and investment dollars have, on net, higher marginal utility than the same dollars in someone else’s hands, doesn’t that make it much harder to argue for a UBI? Whether tax rates are flat (or VAT) or progressive, the level needed to support a UBI will reduce wealthy people’s income relative to the poor and working class, but a progressive rate leaves the middle class better off. That means potentially less charity (but also less need for certain forms of charity), and less investment (but more people with the means and resources to become entrepreneurs at less personal risk, less resistance to automation, and greater ability for people to move and change jobs and improve their own lives). After so many points arguing (correctly, I think) about the equivalence of taxation and subsidy, I found it jarring to see support for a UBI but opposition to progressive taxation.
That said, I do think progressive taxes can cause lots of unwanted side effects in our current system, where lots of government support programs phase out right around the same income levels, creating ridiculously high effective tax rates that make it uneconomical for some poor people to accept raises or better jobs.
Mostly, though, I worry about flat tax systems because when the wealthy save and invest more, wealth inequality goes up, and when they use that wealth to buy political influence, soon whatever UBI you set up suddenly won’t get increased to keep pace with overall economic growth. It’s more unstable in the presence of self-interested actors. That’s basically been a central story in (US and many other countries’) politics for the past 40 years or so, and for most of the thousands of years leading up to the early 20th century.
Or similarly: if you want to argue for what tax policy is less distortionary, it would help me (maybe it’s obvious to others, but not to me) if you could better define the reference non-distorted state? It almost sounds like you’re saying the reference state is zero taxation (which I know you know doesn’t make any sense, but that seems like the reference state from which a flat tax is a minimal distortion). But of course no such economy, at least no industrial economy, of that type has ever existed, and if it did it would quickly collapse (at least without a huge number of ancillary changes that would make it, perhaps not unrecognizable, but extremely different from today). And afterwards, whatever wealth and income distribution you’d be applying the flat tax to, would be a very different distribution from what exists today.
There’s a lot to get into here, maybe I will start a separate post about “ideal tax policy”.
I think the “ideal” reference case for non-distortionary tax policy is one with zero taxes in which all public services are provided for by a magic genie somehow.
Fair point, both definitely lead to legal battles. I didn’t mean to compare it to a tax, I meant to compare it to a subsidy on corrective measures (contra the point on not having unfunded mandates specifically) in the case of negative externalities being the reason for the mandate. I think there is a good argument for a general principle in most cases of not subsidizing bad actors for stopping causing harm. The “legal battles” in meant were the idea of private actors using the courts to recoup their losses, which is something I often hear from libertarians but rarely workes in practice.
I agree that having everything out in the open (n hidden taxes) is almost always better as far as taxes and laws go. When that doesn’t happen, I usually assume it’s a kludge for getting around a political block that makes no sense from an “optimize the general welfare” perspective.
I also don’t think any MMTers think taxes should be zero, sorry if I implied anything like that. But “avoiding introducing economic distortions” is, to me, not an obvious goal for a tax policy. I also disagree with your claim that VAT and flat tax achieve or even approach it. A poll tax distorts in favor of the rich, a flat tax or VAT doesn’t account for the declining marginal value of money to individuals (regressive in utility if not dollars), a progressive income tax leads to arguments over rates and brackets, a capital gains tax disincentivizes savings and investment, and so on.
Yes, but for the same reason I don’t see how this is a difference between a minimum wage (unfunded mandate) and a tax equal to the difference between market wage and minimum equal. Believe me, I would much rather have a UBI in place than a minimum wage, if that choice were in front of me.
A carbon tax refunded in the from of a UBI is economically equivalent to a “low carbon subsidy” in which each citizen is paid for the amount of carbon they consume below the defined threshold. In one case we are “penalizing bad behavior” in the other we are “subsidizing people for avoiding bad behavior”.
I agree that for the sake of optics we should “tax bad things” and “subsidize good ones” but from an economic point of view this is irrelevant.
Given two tax systems which produce the same amount of “income” for the government, we should prefer the one which leads to higher welfare overall. This is why, for example, raising all of a government’s income from tariffs is bad, because it uneconomically disadvantages imports leading to a less efficient economy overall.
I was suggesting a flat tax on income or consumption (VAT). These should be identical over a lifetime. A poll tax would be bad for obvious reasons.
I think that we should solve for “regressiveness” by doing a UBI, not by messing with the tax code.
WRT “declining marginal utility of money”, I think this is over hyped. Rich people don’t consume dramatically more than those in the middle class. To the extent that they spend their “excess” income on charity or investment, the marginal utility of those dollars is possibly higher than giving the same money to a already well-off middle class family.
I think we agree here
Utility to whom? The point is that the utility of an extra dollar to an individualdeclines in relation to how much money that individual has already. It’s not aggregate utility, as in utilitarianism. The fact that wealthy people are willing to give their excess money away shows that it doesn’t have that much utility to them, in line with the “declining marginal utility of money” ,andthe fact that doing so increaes overall utility shows that money has more utility to the poor, which is the flipside of the declining marginal utility of money—it has more utility if you have less of it already.
First, there are more than two levels here. UBI would alleviate a lot of suffering for the poor and working class, but realistically the middle class (definitions vary, but Pew defines it as 2/3x to 2x the local median income, so I’ll go with that) will have to see no change or a decrease, since creating a UBI doesn’t create net income in the economy (and that range includes mean as well as median income, and a UBI would bring those two numbers closer together).
And if you truly believe that wealthy people’s charity and investment dollars have, on net, higher marginal utility than the same dollars in someone else’s hands, doesn’t that make it much harder to argue for a UBI? Whether tax rates are flat (or VAT) or progressive, the level needed to support a UBI will reduce wealthy people’s income relative to the poor and working class, but a progressive rate leaves the middle class better off. That means potentially less charity (but also less need for certain forms of charity), and less investment (but more people with the means and resources to become entrepreneurs at less personal risk, less resistance to automation, and greater ability for people to move and change jobs and improve their own lives). After so many points arguing (correctly, I think) about the equivalence of taxation and subsidy, I found it jarring to see support for a UBI but opposition to progressive taxation.
That said, I do think progressive taxes can cause lots of unwanted side effects in our current system, where lots of government support programs phase out right around the same income levels, creating ridiculously high effective tax rates that make it uneconomical for some poor people to accept raises or better jobs.
Mostly, though, I worry about flat tax systems because when the wealthy save and invest more, wealth inequality goes up, and when they use that wealth to buy political influence, soon whatever UBI you set up suddenly won’t get increased to keep pace with overall economic growth. It’s more unstable in the presence of self-interested actors. That’s basically been a central story in (US and many other countries’) politics for the past 40 years or so, and for most of the thousands of years leading up to the early 20th century.
Or similarly: if you want to argue for what tax policy is less distortionary, it would help me (maybe it’s obvious to others, but not to me) if you could better define the reference non-distorted state? It almost sounds like you’re saying the reference state is zero taxation (which I know you know doesn’t make any sense, but that seems like the reference state from which a flat tax is a minimal distortion). But of course no such economy, at least no industrial economy, of that type has ever existed, and if it did it would quickly collapse (at least without a huge number of ancillary changes that would make it, perhaps not unrecognizable, but extremely different from today). And afterwards, whatever wealth and income distribution you’d be applying the flat tax to, would be a very different distribution from what exists today.
There’s a lot to get into here, maybe I will start a separate post about “ideal tax policy”.
I think the “ideal” reference case for non-distortionary tax policy is one with zero taxes in which all public services are provided for by a magic genie somehow.