Since you’ve quoted Ziz out of context, let me finish that quote for you. It is clear that the other half of her (whatever that means) did in fact believe those things and it is clear that this was a recounting of a live-conversation rather than a broad strategy. It is not that weird to not have fully processed the things that you partially believe, live, in the middle of a conversation such that you are surprised by them.
The other half of me was like isn’t it obvious. They are disturbed at me because intense suffering is scary. Because being trans in a world where it would make things worse to transition was pain to intense for social reality to acknowledge, and therefore a threat.
I see you’re equivocating between “honesty”/”credibility” and “reputation” again:
I see you’ve quietly dropped the two other reasons to ding credibility I mentioned to focus on the protest, which along with a misquote is your main reason for why Ziz is a liar:
False imprisonment of kids that are innocent bystanders isn’t just “handles it inappropriately”. None of the LGBTQ+ people I know personally have to the extend of my knowledge done something as bad nor would I expect that to be in their range of possible actions.
It seems obvious to me that false imprisonment of kids is a noncentral description of what Ziz was doing (ie “she staged a protest and unbeknownst to her there were children somewhere” is my model). Given that this was scaled back to a misdemeanor, I imagine that you’re focusing on this specifically for rhetorical effect.
While I’m dubious about the protest being a Smart Move, I don’t think this has much bearing on Ziz’s honesty and I certainly don’t think the coincidental presence of children somewhere in the area has any bearing on it.
From the TDT perspective actually fulfilling what you threaten seems quite reasonable.
From a TDT perspective, actually treating the first thing you come up with after someone asks you a question (esp when its couched in wiggle-terms like “probably”) as a binding pre-commitment does not seem reasonable to me at all.
Given your manipulation of context above, and my notable lack of context wrt this whole situation, you have an asymmetric information advantage here that I suspect you may use to deceive me. As a result, I’m tapping out of the convo here.
I see you’ve quietly dropped the two other reasons to ding credibility I mentioned to focus on the protest, which along with a misquote is your main reason for why Ziz is a liar
I didn’t say that there were three reasons, I only spoke of one reason being that there’s a pattern of behavior. It’s about the generator function. The question is about what generator function explains all three events
We are talking about a person who supposedly follows a coherent decision theory and makes game theory backed moves. I wouldn’t expect that the average LGBTQ+ thinks their actions through in game theoretic terms. There’s also an IQ difference between Ziz and the average human or average LGBTQ+ person where she’s very likely >130 IQ. That means I’m more likely to take a stupid action by a random person as simply a stupid action but expect Ziz to have a better thought out model for why her action makes sense then I would expect for the averge person.
Ziz writes about the importance of not following social conventions and preventing herself from value drift. From the inside I would expect both the Sith robes and the fanfic villian name to be stoic exercises with the intend of immunizing herself against social conventions affecting her. In the post about Pasek’s doom she writes about it being important to be a Gervais-sociopath. Being able to act unconstrained and being able to lie when adventagous is part of being a Gervais-sociopath and the stoic exercises are a way to train mentally into that direction.
My model would explain most weird (as seen by general society) actions of most LGBTQ+ people to be made because even when they are costly (certain people think less of them for it) they are done because the person considers expression of their sexual of gender identity to be a sacred value. Sith robes are not expressions of their sexual of gender identity and thus taking the reputational hit for them shows valuing reputation less.
There’s also sometimes weirdness that comes from lack of social skills and not from conscious decisions that aren’t directly sexual / gender identity. Choosing a fanfic villian name and wearing Sith robes is however done through conscious choice.
It seems obvious to me that false imprisonment of kids is a noncentral description of what Ziz was doing (ie “she staged a protest and unbeknownst to her there were children somewhere” is my model). Given that this was scaled back to a misdemeanor, I imagine that you’re focusing on this specifically for rhetorical effect.
The article was the first impression I got about Ziz (I live in Germany and never have attended a CFAR workshop) and I would expect that I’m not the only person for which it’s true.
You said that the action was only costly with people who Ziz thinks defected with her and that’s not how the action turned out.
While it likely played out worse then she expected beforehand, I don’t think the idea that it was only likely to damage her reputation with the CFAR staff (whom she thinks defected) was a reasonable model of the situation.
The article was the first impression I got about Ziz (I live in Germany and never have attended a CFAR workshop) and I would expect that I’m not the only person for which it’s true.
Ah, mea culpa. I saw your other comment amount Pasek crashing with you and interpreted it to mean you were pretty close to the Ziz-related part of the community. I’m less hesitant about talking to you now so I’ll hop back in.
they are done because the person considers expression of their sexual of gender identity to be a sacred value. Sith robes are not expressions of their sexual of gender identity and thus taking the reputational hit for them shows valuing reputation less.
I really feel that you’re making a category error by repeatedly merging the concepts “credibility with a small set of helpful ppl” and “general reputation.” I don’t see why Sith Robes or gender identity or aesthetics in general should cause me to trust someone less, especially when I have other information on them I consider more relevant. This because, unlike most social conventions which serve as forms of control/submission to the mob/etc, the ability to be perceived as honest by those you want to work with allows you to more easily work with them.
Gervais sociopaths often have principles that include telling the truth.
I don’t think her aesthetic was stoically motivated as much as motivated by the desire to treat ones own interests and values as logically prior to social convention—a refusal to let ones own interests bow to the mob. This seems conceptually similar to me as treating something as a sacred value. It just has more decision theory behind it.
It’s about the generator function. The question is about what generator function explains all three events
I think this is somewhat noncentral because (as mentioned), I disagree that a single generator produced all three events. What do you think the actual relevant generator is, and why do you think it also generates lie-behavior against parties Ziz might want to work with (eg publishing everyone-facing lies on the internet)?
While it likely played out worse then she expected beforehand, I don’t think the idea that it was only likely to damage her reputation with the CFAR staff (whom she thinks defected) was a reasonable model of the situation.
Yeah fair enough. I agree that this isn’t a reasonable model but my point still stands I think. The issue is that I neglected a third group aside from people who plan on defecting against Ziz or have low opinions of her judgement. People who automatically flinch away from others who do unconstrained things would also likely trust her less. Still, that group would be unable to help do the unconstrained things she wants to so I don’t think it means much to Ziz that she can’t work with them.
What group of people do you think Ziz wanted to work with that she is no longer able to because of the protest?
Since you’ve quoted Ziz out of context, let me finish that quote for you. It is clear that the other half of her (whatever that means) did in fact believe those things and it is clear that this was a recounting of a live-conversation rather than a broad strategy. It is not that weird to not have fully processed the things that you partially believe, live, in the middle of a conversation such that you are surprised by them.
I see you’re equivocating between “honesty”/”credibility” and “reputation” again:
I see you’ve quietly dropped the two other reasons to ding credibility I mentioned to focus on the protest, which along with a misquote is your main reason for why Ziz is a liar:
It seems obvious to me that false imprisonment of kids is a noncentral description of what Ziz was doing (ie “she staged a protest and unbeknownst to her there were children somewhere” is my model). Given that this was scaled back to a misdemeanor, I imagine that you’re focusing on this specifically for rhetorical effect.
While I’m dubious about the protest being a Smart Move, I don’t think this has much bearing on Ziz’s honesty and I certainly don’t think the coincidental presence of children somewhere in the area has any bearing on it.
From a TDT perspective, actually treating the first thing you come up with after someone asks you a question (esp when its couched in wiggle-terms like “probably”) as a binding pre-commitment does not seem reasonable to me at all.
Given your manipulation of context above, and my notable lack of context wrt this whole situation, you have an asymmetric information advantage here that I suspect you may use to deceive me. As a result, I’m tapping out of the convo here.
If you are in good faith, I wish you well.
I didn’t say that there were three reasons, I only spoke of one reason being that there’s a pattern of behavior. It’s about the generator function. The question is about what generator function explains all three events
We are talking about a person who supposedly follows a coherent decision theory and makes game theory backed moves. I wouldn’t expect that the average LGBTQ+ thinks their actions through in game theoretic terms. There’s also an IQ difference between Ziz and the average human or average LGBTQ+ person where she’s very likely >130 IQ. That means I’m more likely to take a stupid action by a random person as simply a stupid action but expect Ziz to have a better thought out model for why her action makes sense then I would expect for the averge person.
Ziz writes about the importance of not following social conventions and preventing herself from value drift. From the inside I would expect both the Sith robes and the fanfic villian name to be stoic exercises with the intend of immunizing herself against social conventions affecting her. In the post about Pasek’s doom she writes about it being important to be a Gervais-sociopath. Being able to act unconstrained and being able to lie when adventagous is part of being a Gervais-sociopath and the stoic exercises are a way to train mentally into that direction.
My model would explain most weird (as seen by general society) actions of most LGBTQ+ people to be made because even when they are costly (certain people think less of them for it) they are done because the person considers expression of their sexual of gender identity to be a sacred value. Sith robes are not expressions of their sexual of gender identity and thus taking the reputational hit for them shows valuing reputation less.
There’s also sometimes weirdness that comes from lack of social skills and not from conscious decisions that aren’t directly sexual / gender identity. Choosing a fanfic villian name and wearing Sith robes is however done through conscious choice.
The article was the first impression I got about Ziz (I live in Germany and never have attended a CFAR workshop) and I would expect that I’m not the only person for which it’s true.
You said that the action was only costly with people who Ziz thinks defected with her and that’s not how the action turned out.
While it likely played out worse then she expected beforehand, I don’t think the idea that it was only likely to damage her reputation with the CFAR staff (whom she thinks defected) was a reasonable model of the situation.
Ah, mea culpa. I saw your other comment amount Pasek crashing with you and interpreted it to mean you were pretty close to the Ziz-related part of the community. I’m less hesitant about talking to you now so I’ll hop back in.
I really feel that you’re making a category error by repeatedly merging the concepts “credibility with a small set of helpful ppl” and “general reputation.” I don’t see why Sith Robes or gender identity or aesthetics in general should cause me to trust someone less, especially when I have other information on them I consider more relevant. This because, unlike most social conventions which serve as forms of control/submission to the mob/etc, the ability to be perceived as honest by those you want to work with allows you to more easily work with them.
Gervais sociopaths often have principles that include telling the truth.
I don’t think her aesthetic was stoically motivated as much as motivated by the desire to treat ones own interests and values as logically prior to social convention—a refusal to let ones own interests bow to the mob. This seems conceptually similar to me as treating something as a sacred value. It just has more decision theory behind it.
I think this is somewhat noncentral because (as mentioned), I disagree that a single generator produced all three events. What do you think the actual relevant generator is, and why do you think it also generates lie-behavior against parties Ziz might want to work with (eg publishing everyone-facing lies on the internet)?
Yeah fair enough. I agree that this isn’t a reasonable model but my point still stands I think. The issue is that I neglected a third group aside from people who plan on defecting against Ziz or have low opinions of her judgement. People who automatically flinch away from others who do unconstrained things would also likely trust her less. Still, that group would be unable to help do the unconstrained things she wants to so I don’t think it means much to Ziz that she can’t work with them.
What group of people do you think Ziz wanted to work with that she is no longer able to because of the protest?