Some things are shallower than that, right? Even if the peak is always around 10000 hours of smart practice in, If you can get to 99.9% effectiveness after 50 hours, then why continue?
I also doubt that the peak is really so close to 10000 hours no matter what.
Can somebody summarize the best evidence? It’s even interesting to me if the 10k hours (or whatever, it’s fine if it varies with the discipline) can be spread out or compressed within a wide range of real time with little difference in the outcome.
I suspect it’s a selection effect. If a task can be effectively mastered with a short investment of time (like your example of 50 hours), then it’s not something you can turn into a career. If a task can’t be mastered in less than some large upper bound of hours (say, around 20,000) then it also can’t be turned into a career. Tasks with a mastering time of around 10,000 are the ones that are pragmatic to specialize in and establish comparative advantage, so they are the ones that abound.
I think you’re on the right track, thinking of selection effects. I don’t think the effect you mentioned explains why to expect something requiring very nearly 10k hours, even though there’s some obvious truth to it. I take it you’d put a wide deviation around the (central?) 10k figure.
Careers and skills are rewarded precisely because they’re useful. I think what you’re saying is that prestigious careers are the ones that take many years to develop (5 years full time = 10k hours). I think that’s mostly true if you amend it to include those careers that are more a combination of raw physical/mental gifts and training. It’s also true that if something isn’t sufficiently rewarding, few people will bother spending 10k hours on it.
Here’s the selection effect I like: people who can never become masters (even if they try) drop out well before completing 10k hours of focused practice. If you look at the few failed masters who persist in spending 10k hours, it’s easy to find things about their practice that you can call crazy: “can’t you see that you’re doing this part wrong? why aren’t you working on correcting it, instead spending time on what’s fun or satisfying or already routine?” In fact they may never be able to correct that thing they lack the gifts for.
I think that’s nearly the entire story. Surely plenty of people with high talent nearly-peak (above 99% of their lifetime peak) sooner or (slow learners, or unusually deep potential) later than 10k hours.
I’d like to see what happens with people who are recreational athletes (basketball, volleyball, softball, etc.), not especially gifted in physical attributes, some of whom definitely log the 10k hours. Will it be accurate to say that those who actually drilled and rationally worked on specific skills based on analysis of their game performance, should be masters (limited from being pro-level only by their physical handicap)?
I take it you’d put a wide deviation around the (central?) 10k figure.
I would. We can see the 10k figure warping and changing over time just for highly specific expertises, like for chess—it’s a regular bit of media coverage how grandmasters seem to be getting younger and (real time) less experienced, but still as good as ever.
(It’s also interesting to note that at the same time as human grandmaster play becomes easier to acquire, truly high-level play has ceased to be just humans and become teams of computers & humans.)
I’d like to see what happens with people who are recreational athletes (basketball, volleyball, softball, etc.), not especially gifted in physical attributes, some of whom definitely log the 10k hours. Will it be accurate to say that those who actually drilled and rationally worked on specific skills based on analysis of their game performance, should be masters (limited from being pro-level only by their physical handicap)?
I know of nothing to the contrary. The Cambridge Handbook of expertise mentions that experts are made only by deliberate experimental practice, and that mere experience does not suffice; that amateurs can spend multiple decades at something and because their experience is not the right sort of experience, remain at their plateau.
I’d like to amend my comment; I’ve read further in the Cambridge Handbook and found this quote:
“Recent research has suggested a qualification on this rule of thumb. For instance, Hoffman, Coffey, and Ford (2000) found that even junior journeymen weather forecasters (individuals in their early 30s) can have had as much as 25,000 hours of experience. A similar figure seems appropriate for the domain of intelligence analysis (Hoffman, 2003a).”
I think you’re on the right track, thinking of selection effects. I don’t think the effect you mentioned explains why to expect something requiring very nearly 10k hours, even though there’s some obvious truth to it. I take it you’d put a wide deviation around the (central?) 10k figure.
Yes, I would. I’m not deeply invested in the correctness of my exact explanation; I’d find explanations similar to it as plausible. It’s just the idea that came to mind when I actually queried my brain for the answer your original question.
Well, my claim that tasks that take 10,000 hours to master are most common was pulled from the general vicinity of my posterior. If I were going to devote more than 4 minutes of thought to the topic I’d want to be a lot more careful about the whole question.
What’s with the 10000 hours figure?
Some things are shallower than that, right? Even if the peak is always around 10000 hours of smart practice in, If you can get to 99.9% effectiveness after 50 hours, then why continue?
I also doubt that the peak is really so close to 10000 hours no matter what.
Can somebody summarize the best evidence? It’s even interesting to me if the 10k hours (or whatever, it’s fine if it varies with the discipline) can be spread out or compressed within a wide range of real time with little difference in the outcome.
I suspect it’s a selection effect. If a task can be effectively mastered with a short investment of time (like your example of 50 hours), then it’s not something you can turn into a career. If a task can’t be mastered in less than some large upper bound of hours (say, around 20,000) then it also can’t be turned into a career. Tasks with a mastering time of around 10,000 are the ones that are pragmatic to specialize in and establish comparative advantage, so they are the ones that abound.
I think you’re on the right track, thinking of selection effects. I don’t think the effect you mentioned explains why to expect something requiring very nearly 10k hours, even though there’s some obvious truth to it. I take it you’d put a wide deviation around the (central?) 10k figure.
Careers and skills are rewarded precisely because they’re useful. I think what you’re saying is that prestigious careers are the ones that take many years to develop (5 years full time = 10k hours). I think that’s mostly true if you amend it to include those careers that are more a combination of raw physical/mental gifts and training. It’s also true that if something isn’t sufficiently rewarding, few people will bother spending 10k hours on it.
Here’s the selection effect I like: people who can never become masters (even if they try) drop out well before completing 10k hours of focused practice. If you look at the few failed masters who persist in spending 10k hours, it’s easy to find things about their practice that you can call crazy: “can’t you see that you’re doing this part wrong? why aren’t you working on correcting it, instead spending time on what’s fun or satisfying or already routine?” In fact they may never be able to correct that thing they lack the gifts for.
I think that’s nearly the entire story. Surely plenty of people with high talent nearly-peak (above 99% of their lifetime peak) sooner or (slow learners, or unusually deep potential) later than 10k hours.
I’d like to see what happens with people who are recreational athletes (basketball, volleyball, softball, etc.), not especially gifted in physical attributes, some of whom definitely log the 10k hours. Will it be accurate to say that those who actually drilled and rationally worked on specific skills based on analysis of their game performance, should be masters (limited from being pro-level only by their physical handicap)?
I would. We can see the 10k figure warping and changing over time just for highly specific expertises, like for chess—it’s a regular bit of media coverage how grandmasters seem to be getting younger and (real time) less experienced, but still as good as ever.
(It’s also interesting to note that at the same time as human grandmaster play becomes easier to acquire, truly high-level play has ceased to be just humans and become teams of computers & humans.)
I know of nothing to the contrary. The Cambridge Handbook of expertise mentions that experts are made only by deliberate experimental practice, and that mere experience does not suffice; that amateurs can spend multiple decades at something and because their experience is not the right sort of experience, remain at their plateau.
I’d like to amend my comment; I’ve read further in the Cambridge Handbook and found this quote:
Yes, I would. I’m not deeply invested in the correctness of my exact explanation; I’d find explanations similar to it as plausible. It’s just the idea that came to mind when I actually queried my brain for the answer your original question.
Any theories about why there aren’t more 5,000 hour skills?
Well, my claim that tasks that take 10,000 hours to master are most common was pulled from the general vicinity of my posterior. If I were going to devote more than 4 minutes of thought to the topic I’d want to be a lot more careful about the whole question.
It may also be a point around which diminishing returns become excessive due to the approximate limitations of humans.