You have to have beliefs about the world and how it works before you can have intentions to change it. I’m sure just about everyone would rather live in a place where no one was killed and everyone has their health cared for. People who oppose “universal healthcare” don’t usually want poor people to suffer: they just expect a whole host of problems to come with treating healthcare as a right and not a good. People who want extra-judicial drone assassinations of citizens aren’t particularly concerned with the State being empowered who can live or die. They just want to prevent terrorist attacks.
To extend your analogy: before deciding to navigate anywhere you still have to have beliefs about what the sea is, where the coastline is, how deep the water is, what the weather is like, how to manage the crew, what to do with the anchor, the rudder and the sails, general beliefs about the accuracy of your maps and navigational equipment, beliefs about what life is like at your new destination and whether it is worth the risks you’ll encounter a long the way and even whether or not it is a place you will want to live or do business in, beliefs about the possibility of it changing once you get there. Not to mention all sorts of possibilities you probably haven’t even thought of yet because your scientists haven’t developed the germ theory of disease and you’re about bring Small Pox and centuries of genocide and colonialism to a continent you didn’t even know existed because the world is twice as large as you thought it was! But hey, at least you intended to reach the Indies and make Spain wealthy.
Intentions are worthless if you don’t know what you’re talking about and they change radically when you do. It sounds like you’re trying to comprehend other people’s political views through the framework of your own political philosophy. But there is nothing inherent or necessary about that framework.
As far as I can tell, you’re arguing that I should undertake to understand somebody’s beliefs about the positioning of all 214,000 miles of coastline in the world before I try to understand their intentions about where they’re navigating to.
So, to sum up my response: It doesn’t matter. I don’t need to know where they think the coastlines are; all I need to know is that they want to go to Jamaica because the weather is nice. And then the information that a hurricane is coming through becomes relevant. If they’re going to Jamaica to deliver medical supplies in preparation for that hurricane, that piece of information doesn’t add anything.
You seem to be proposing that in an argument about politics, I should engage in a depth-first search. Here’s the issue: I can knock down all of their arguments, and change not a thing in their mind. No matter how many “How” arguments are defeated, there are an infinite more laying in wait. To change a mind, you must address the -Why-. You must direct your arguments to their motivations.
You seem to be suggesting I should argue with somebody like this:
“You’re going to travel up the sound? You’ll hit rocks during low tide, and it looks like that’s when you’ll be going through. You should go around. And this dock in your itinerary is closed this time of year; you’ll need to refuel over here instead. That restaurant right there has terrible food; you should eat here instead...” And so on and so forth, when a good argument might go...
“Oh, you’re trying to travel to the peninsula? You’d be better off driving there, the sea route is really inhospitable.”
Intentions are destinations. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, sure, they’re worthless—but whether you know what you’re talking about or not, it’s completely useless to analyze a route if you don’t know where that route is intended to lead.
you’re arguing that I should undertake to understand somebody’s beliefs about the positioning of all 214,000 miles of coastline in the world before I try to understand their intentions about where they’re navigating to
I’m not arguing that and I think it’s a pretty blatant strawman and that nearly any independent observer of this exchange would agree. This makes me pretty averse to continuing this conversation.
You seem to be proposing that in an argument about politics, I should engage in a depth-first search. Here’s the issue: I can knock down all of their arguments, and change not a thing in their mind. No matter how many “How” arguments are defeated, there are an infinite more laying in wait. To change a mind, you must address the -Why-. You must direct your arguments to their motivations.
No. I think one should never ever engage in an argument about politics to try to change someone’s mind unless your interlocutor is that very peculiar individual who will alter their beliefs based on new evidence. To the extent the above description is true it is evidence that people don’t form political opinions based on evidence and that’s a good time to stop arguing with someone about their opinions.
all I need to know is that they want to go to Jamaica because the weather is nice.
The weather is nice in Haiti too. Also, in High Communist Cuba and (parts of) apartheid South Africa. “Opposing universal health care” is like “opposing going to Haiti”. “Sure it the weather sounds nice but you’ve overlooked dozens of other issues”. It doesn’t usually mean you’re opposed to nice weather.
It wasn’t my intention to strawman you. If my interpretations of your arguments are incorrect, I have absolutely no idea what you’re trying to convey, except possibly a big “It’s complicated!” - which I don’t disagree with, and if that’s supposed to be a counterargument, it’s misdirected.
As for people discarding evidence, proving “Brand A of universal healthcare is Bad” doesn’t say anything about brands B-Z—again, my point is that you seem to be suggesting I should focus on implementation (or is that a strawman?) details rather than the intentions of that implementation. Disproving implementations does nothing.
For example, I could argue (ignore the truth value of this statement, please) that the PPACA necessitates or enables Death Panels, but this isn’t an argument against universal healthcare, only one particular -implementation-. It doesn’t matter whether it’s true or false for purposes of arguing about universal healthcare more broadly.
As for people discarding evidence, proving “Brand A of universal healthcare is Bad” doesn’t say anything about brands B-Z
There are obviously possible counter arguments that demonstrate that a vast majority set of possible implementations are bad. The possible implementations of any intention are likely to share a number of crucial parts. There are only so many ways to get to a place. E.g. If I think more health care harms health outcomes as much as it helps then I am going to oppose any implementation that involves subsidizing health care. And of course I could have as many such arguments as I like. If I have fifty arguments that, combined, show that all the possibly implementations of universal health care are harmful than I have good reason to oppose the intention of implementing universal health care. And I don’t have to exhaust all the possibilities: I just have to have never heard of an implementation plan that I didn’t think would be bad.
Not to mention: “universal health care” doesn’t actually mean “everyone gets the health care they need” it means something like, “everyone gets the health care they need through some new government mechanism”. “Increase per capita GDP and lower health care costs though economic growth until everyone can afford what they need” might the best way to get everyone covered, but it would never be called “a plan for universal health care”.
Obviously, “that rout to Jamaica is tricky, you can’t go South there” is not an objection to the basic idea of going to Jamaica. But “Jamaica is a terrible place” is. So is “40% of people who try to get to Jamaica die en route”. So is “we don’t have that kind of money”. So is “Jamaica will turn you away at the border and it is too dangerous to sneak in”. “I don’t like nice weather” is also a basic objection. But it’s an uncommon one and mere opposition to going to Jamaica is a really bad indicator that someone doesn’t like sunny days.
I’m not saying you need to determine every detail of the implementation of a policy before counting oneself in favor of something. But policy goals are not determined in the abstract. There are important, basic facts about economics, human nature, and government that yield heuristics about what policy goals are beneficial and which are harmful.
You have to have beliefs about the world and how it works before you can have intentions to change it. I’m sure just about everyone would rather live in a place where no one was killed and everyone has their health cared for. People who oppose “universal healthcare” don’t usually want poor people to suffer: they just expect a whole host of problems to come with treating healthcare as a right and not a good. People who want extra-judicial drone assassinations of citizens aren’t particularly concerned with the State being empowered who can live or die. They just want to prevent terrorist attacks.
To extend your analogy: before deciding to navigate anywhere you still have to have beliefs about what the sea is, where the coastline is, how deep the water is, what the weather is like, how to manage the crew, what to do with the anchor, the rudder and the sails, general beliefs about the accuracy of your maps and navigational equipment, beliefs about what life is like at your new destination and whether it is worth the risks you’ll encounter a long the way and even whether or not it is a place you will want to live or do business in, beliefs about the possibility of it changing once you get there. Not to mention all sorts of possibilities you probably haven’t even thought of yet because your scientists haven’t developed the germ theory of disease and you’re about bring Small Pox and centuries of genocide and colonialism to a continent you didn’t even know existed because the world is twice as large as you thought it was! But hey, at least you intended to reach the Indies and make Spain wealthy.
Intentions are worthless if you don’t know what you’re talking about and they change radically when you do. It sounds like you’re trying to comprehend other people’s political views through the framework of your own political philosophy. But there is nothing inherent or necessary about that framework.
As far as I can tell, you’re arguing that I should undertake to understand somebody’s beliefs about the positioning of all 214,000 miles of coastline in the world before I try to understand their intentions about where they’re navigating to.
So, to sum up my response: It doesn’t matter. I don’t need to know where they think the coastlines are; all I need to know is that they want to go to Jamaica because the weather is nice. And then the information that a hurricane is coming through becomes relevant. If they’re going to Jamaica to deliver medical supplies in preparation for that hurricane, that piece of information doesn’t add anything.
You seem to be proposing that in an argument about politics, I should engage in a depth-first search. Here’s the issue: I can knock down all of their arguments, and change not a thing in their mind. No matter how many “How” arguments are defeated, there are an infinite more laying in wait. To change a mind, you must address the -Why-. You must direct your arguments to their motivations.
You seem to be suggesting I should argue with somebody like this:
“You’re going to travel up the sound? You’ll hit rocks during low tide, and it looks like that’s when you’ll be going through. You should go around. And this dock in your itinerary is closed this time of year; you’ll need to refuel over here instead. That restaurant right there has terrible food; you should eat here instead...” And so on and so forth, when a good argument might go...
“Oh, you’re trying to travel to the peninsula? You’d be better off driving there, the sea route is really inhospitable.”
Intentions are destinations. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, sure, they’re worthless—but whether you know what you’re talking about or not, it’s completely useless to analyze a route if you don’t know where that route is intended to lead.
I’m not arguing that and I think it’s a pretty blatant strawman and that nearly any independent observer of this exchange would agree. This makes me pretty averse to continuing this conversation.
No. I think one should never ever engage in an argument about politics to try to change someone’s mind unless your interlocutor is that very peculiar individual who will alter their beliefs based on new evidence. To the extent the above description is true it is evidence that people don’t form political opinions based on evidence and that’s a good time to stop arguing with someone about their opinions.
The weather is nice in Haiti too. Also, in High Communist Cuba and (parts of) apartheid South Africa. “Opposing universal health care” is like “opposing going to Haiti”. “Sure it the weather sounds nice but you’ve overlooked dozens of other issues”. It doesn’t usually mean you’re opposed to nice weather.
It wasn’t my intention to strawman you. If my interpretations of your arguments are incorrect, I have absolutely no idea what you’re trying to convey, except possibly a big “It’s complicated!” - which I don’t disagree with, and if that’s supposed to be a counterargument, it’s misdirected.
As for people discarding evidence, proving “Brand A of universal healthcare is Bad” doesn’t say anything about brands B-Z—again, my point is that you seem to be suggesting I should focus on implementation (or is that a strawman?) details rather than the intentions of that implementation. Disproving implementations does nothing.
For example, I could argue (ignore the truth value of this statement, please) that the PPACA necessitates or enables Death Panels, but this isn’t an argument against universal healthcare, only one particular -implementation-. It doesn’t matter whether it’s true or false for purposes of arguing about universal healthcare more broadly.
There are obviously possible counter arguments that demonstrate that a vast majority set of possible implementations are bad. The possible implementations of any intention are likely to share a number of crucial parts. There are only so many ways to get to a place. E.g. If I think more health care harms health outcomes as much as it helps then I am going to oppose any implementation that involves subsidizing health care. And of course I could have as many such arguments as I like. If I have fifty arguments that, combined, show that all the possibly implementations of universal health care are harmful than I have good reason to oppose the intention of implementing universal health care. And I don’t have to exhaust all the possibilities: I just have to have never heard of an implementation plan that I didn’t think would be bad.
Not to mention: “universal health care” doesn’t actually mean “everyone gets the health care they need” it means something like, “everyone gets the health care they need through some new government mechanism”. “Increase per capita GDP and lower health care costs though economic growth until everyone can afford what they need” might the best way to get everyone covered, but it would never be called “a plan for universal health care”.
Obviously, “that rout to Jamaica is tricky, you can’t go South there” is not an objection to the basic idea of going to Jamaica. But “Jamaica is a terrible place” is. So is “40% of people who try to get to Jamaica die en route”. So is “we don’t have that kind of money”. So is “Jamaica will turn you away at the border and it is too dangerous to sneak in”. “I don’t like nice weather” is also a basic objection. But it’s an uncommon one and mere opposition to going to Jamaica is a really bad indicator that someone doesn’t like sunny days.
I’m not saying you need to determine every detail of the implementation of a policy before counting oneself in favor of something. But policy goals are not determined in the abstract. There are important, basic facts about economics, human nature, and government that yield heuristics about what policy goals are beneficial and which are harmful.