Do you mind providing examples of what categories and indicators you use?
I can try to provide examples. The indicators might be too vague for the examples to help much with though!
A few weeks ago I met a fellow who seems to hail from old-guard atheism. Turn-of-the-century “Down with religion!” type of stuff. He was leading a philosophy discussion group I was checking out. At some point he said something (I don’t remember what) that made me think he didn’t understand what Vervaeke calls “the meaning crisis”. So I brought it up. He started going into a kind of pressured debate mode that I intuitively recognized from back when I swam in activist atheism circles. I had a hard time pinning down the moves he was doing, but I could tell I felt a kind of pressure, like I was being socially & logically pulled into a boxing ring. I realized after a few beats that he must have interpreted what I was saying as an assertion that God (as he thought others thought of God) is real. I still don’t know what rhetorical tricks he was doing, and I doubt any of them were conscious on his part, but I could tell that something screwy was going on because of the way interacting with him became tense and how others around us got uneasy and shifted how they were conversing. (Some wanted to engage & help the logic, some wanted to change the subject.)
Another example: Around a week ago I bumped into a strange character who runs a strange bookstore. A type of strange that I see as being common between Vassar and Ziz and Crowley, if that gives you a flavor. He was clearly on his way out the door, but as he headed out he directed some of his… attention-stuff… at me. I’m still not sure what exactly he was doing. On the surface it looked normal: he handed me a pamphlet with some of the info about their new brick-and-mortar store, along with their online store’s details. But there was something he was doing that was obviously about… keeping me off-balance. I think it was a general social thing he does: I watched him do it with the young man who was clearly a friend to him and who was tending the store. A part of me was fascinated. But another part of me was throwing up alarm bells. It felt like some kind of unknown frame manipulation. I couldn’t point at exactly how I was being affected, but I knew that I was, because my inner feet felt less firmly on inner ground in a way that was some kind of strategic.
More blatantly, the way that streetside preachers used to find a corner on college campuses and use a loudspeaker to spout off fundamentalist literalist Christianity memes. It’s obvious to me now that the memetic strategy here isn’t “You hear my ideas and then agree.” It’s somehow related to the way that it spurs debate. Back in my grad school days, I’d see clusters of undergrads surrounding these preachers and trying to argue with them, both sides engaging in predetermined patter. It was quite strange. I could feel the pull to argue with the preacher myself! But why? It has a snare trap feeling to it. I don’t understand the exact mechanism. I might be able to come up with a just-so story. But looking back it’s obvious that there’s a being-sucked-in feeling that’s somehow part of the memetic strategy. It’s built into the rhetoric. So a first-line immune response is “Nope.” Even though I have little idea what it is that I’m noping out of. Just its vibe.
I don’t think all (any?) of these fall under what you’re calling “ultra-BS”. That’s kind of my point: I think my rhetoric detector is tracking vibes more than techniques, and you’re naming a technique category. Something like that.
I think this part stands alone, so I’ll reply to the rest separately.
A few weeks ago I met a fellow who seems to hail from old-guard atheism. Turn-of-the-century “Down with religion!” type of stuff. He was leading a philosophy discussion group I was checking out. At some point he said something (I don’t remember what) that made me think he didn’t understand what Vervaeke calls “the meaning crisis”. So I brought it up. He started going into a kind of pressured debate mode that I intuitively recognized from back when I swam in activist atheism circles. I had a hard time pinning down the moves he was doing, but I could tell I felt a kind of pressure, like I was being socially & logically pulled into a boxing ring. I realized after a few beats that he must have interpreted what I was saying as an assertion that God (as he thought others thought of God) is real. I still don’t know what rhetorical tricks he was doing, and I doubt any of them were conscious on his part, but I could tell that something screwy was going on because of the way interacting with him became tense and how others around us got uneasy and shifted how they were conversing. (Some wanted to engage & help the logic, some wanted to change the subject.)
So, about this, I think this is a typical case of status game esque ‘social cognition’. If membership in a certain group is a big part of your identity, the group can’t be wrong. (Imagine if you’re a devout Churchgoer, and someone suggests your priest may be one of many pedophiles). There’s an instinctive reaction of ‘well, church is a big part of my life, and makes me feel like a full, happy person, very good vibes… unlike pedophilia’ so they snap to defending their local priest. You may see the ‘happens in other places but not here’ defense. Social cognition isn’t a full proof dark arts happened, but it usually is a good indicator (since by nature it tends to be irrational). In this case it’s an atheist who bases status on being an athiest feeling their personal beliefs/worth are being attacked, and responding as a result. I’d read up on Will Storr’s The Status Game if you’re interested.
Another example: Around a week ago I bumped into a strange character who runs a strange bookstore. A type of strange that I see as being common between Vassar and Ziz and Crowley, if that gives you a flavor. He was clearly on his way out the door, but as he headed out he directed some of his… attention-stuff… at me. I’m still not sure what exactly he was doing. On the surface it looked normal: he handed me a pamphlet with some of the info about their new brick-and-mortar store, along with their online store’s details. But there was something he was doing that was obviously about… keeping me off-balance. I think it was a general social thing he does: I watched him do it with the young man who was clearly a friend to him and who was tending the store. A part of me was fascinated. But another part of me was throwing up alarm bells. It felt like some kind of unknown frame manipulation. I couldn’t point at exactly how I was being affected, but I knew that I was, because my inner feet felt less firmly on inner ground in a way that was some kind of strategic.
I think I can understand in general terms what might’ve happened. There’s a lot of ways to ‘suggest’ something without verbally saying it. Think of an advertisement having a pretty girl in the product (look at you, so fat and ugly, don’t you want to be more like us?). It’s not explicit, of course, that’s the point, but it’s meant to take peripheral instead of central route persuasion.
From a more ‘human’ example, I might think of a negotiator seating their rival in front of the curtains while the sun is shining through to disorient them, or a parent asking one sibling to do something after having just yelled at another. In all cases there’s a hidden message of sorts, which can at times be difficult to put into words but is usually felt as a vibe. I have difficulty describing it myself.
I think one I can describe might be the sandwich example (though this isn’t something I’ve seen in my own life). You have something important to talk about someone with, and they’re maintaining eye contact and ‘paying attention’, but they’re also nibbling on the sandwich and enjoying themselves. (indirect communication: This is not too big of an issue). Or maybe they put the sandwich down occasionally check their watch, and their half eaten sandwich (why are you making me wait? can’t you see I’m hungry and busy?).
I obviously can’t say what exactly they did. But I think vibe wise the effect was similar to some of the techniques I illustrated above. They did something, it wasn’t apparent what, for a desired effect. I’ll call it peripheral techniques of communication (as opposed to central).
I think the preacher example is similar. (implicit message: I’m attacking you, your tribal groups, your status, and offering you some free status right now for beating me in front of your friends. Why don’t you come give it a try?) What specific technique they used, I’m not sure, but I think it had the effect of communicating an implicit message (thus the reaction).
And yes, you’re right, none of these are ‘ultra-BS’, I consider them different techniques with a different purpose. I do think they are techniques though, and someone familiar with them can recognize them.
Yep, I think you’re basically right on all accounts. Maybe a little off with the atheist fellow, but because of context I didn’t think to share until reading your analysis, and what you said is close enough!
It’s funny, I’m pretty familiar with this level of analysis, but I still notice myself thinking a little differently about the bookstore guy in light of what you’ve said here. I know people do the unbalancing thing you’re talking about. (Heck, I used to quite a lot! And probably still do in ways I haven’t learned to notice. Charisma is a hell of a drug when you’re chronically nervous!) But I didn’t think to think of it in these terms. Now I’m reflecting on the incident and noticing “Oh, yeah, okay, I can pinpoint a bunch of tiny details when I think of it this way.”
The fact that I couldn’t tell whether any of these were “ultra-BS” is more the central point to me.
If I could trouble you to name it: Is there a more everyday kind of example of ultra-BS? Not in debate or politics?
It’s funny, I’m pretty familiar with this level of analysis, but I still notice myself thinking a little differently about the bookstore guy in light of what you’ve said here. I know people do the unbalancing thing you’re talking about. (Heck, I used to quite a lot! And probably still do in ways I haven’t learned to notice. Charisma is a hell of a drug when you’re chronically nervous!) But I didn’t think to think of it in these terms. Now I’m reflecting on the incident and noticing “Oh, yeah, okay, I can pinpoint a bunch of tiny details when I think of it this way.”
Glad you appreciated my analysis!
The fact that I couldn’t tell whether any of these were “ultra-BS” is more the central point to me.
Hm… I think we may have miscommunicated somewhere. From what I understand at least, what you saw was distinctly not ‘ultra-BS’ as I envision it.
In persuasion, students of rhetoric generally classify two types of persuasive styles, ‘central’ and ‘peripheral’, route, specifically. Whereas central route persuasion focuses more on overt appeals to logic, peripheral route focuses more on other factors. Consider, for instance, the difference between an advertisement extolling the nutritional benefits of their drink, as opposed to an ad for the same company showing a half naked girl sampling it. Both aim to ‘convince’ the consumer to buy their product, except one employs a much different strategy than the other.
More generally, central route persuasion is explicit. We want you to convince you of ‘X’, here are the arguments for ‘X’. The drink is nutritious and good for your health, you should Buy the Drink. Peripheral route persuasion is more implicit, though at times it’s no less subtle. This pretty and sexually appealing girl loves this drink, why don’t you? Doesn’t evolution make you predisposed to trust pretty people? Wouldn’t you want to be more like them?Buy the drink
I consider ultra-BS a primarily ‘central route’ argument, as the practitioner uses explicit reasoning to support explicit narrative arguments. It’s often ill intentioned sure, and clearly motivated, intellectually dishonest reasoning, but that’s besides the point. It still falls under the category of ‘central route’ arguments.
Putting someone off balance, on the other hand, is more ‘peripheral route’ persuasion. There’s far more emphasis on the implicit messaging. You don’t know what you’re doing, do you? Trust me instead, come on.
In the case of your atheist friend, it’s not really possible to tell what persuasion technique they used, because it wasn’t really clear. But the indicators you received were accurate, because under those conditions he would be incentivized to use dishonest techniques like ultra-BS. That’s not to say, however, that they did use ultra-BS!
In that sense, I think I might conclude that your implicit primers and vibes are very good at detecting implicit persuasion, which typically but not always has a correlation with dark artsy techniques. Dark Arts often relies on implicit messaging, because if the message were explicit (see with sexual advertising techniques) it would be, well… ridiculous. (’So I should buy your product just because one pretty person drunk it? What kinda logic is that?)
However, ‘ultra-BS’ is an explicit technique, which is why I believe your typical indicators failed. You saw the indicators for what you’re used to associating with ‘honest discussion’, indicators like evidence, a coherent narrative, and good presentation skills. In a interpersonal setting, these indicators likely would’ve been sufficient. Not so in politics.
That said...
If I could trouble you to name it: Is there a more everyday kind of example of ultra-BS? Not in debate or politics?
This is a bit hard, since ‘ultra-BS’ is a technique designed for the environment of politics by a special kind of dishonest people. Regular people tend to be intellectually honest. You won’t see them support a policy one moment and oppose it the same evening. You also don’t see them wielding more sophisticated evidences and proofs in daily discussion, which is why we see ‘ultra-BS’ far less often in everyday life. If someone is pulling out evidence at all chances are they’ve already ‘won’ the argument. Regular people also tend to have far less stake/interest in their political positions, unlike say, debaters or politicians. The incentives and structure of the format is different.
The most similar example I can think of off the top of my head is a spat between domestic partners. Say, Alice and Bob.
Alice: You never take out the trash (evidence), look after the kids (evidence), or say you care about me (evidence). And now you’ve forgotten about our anniversary? (evidence) How dare you?? Do you really care about me? (narrative: Bob doesn’t care about Alice)
But then, this isn’t a perfect fit for ultra-BS, since 1) Alice isn’t necessarily aware she’s overgeneralizing 2) Alice doesn’t care about the specific examples she uses, she’s just as likely responding to a ‘vibe’ of laziness or lack of care from her partner. 3) The evidence is well… not very sophisticated.
But it general, I guess it’s similar in that Alice is supporting a dubious narrative with credible evidence (a pretty general summary of ‘ultra-BS’). Sure, Bob did do all these things, and probably cares for Alice in other ways which she isn’t acknowledging (or who knows, maybe he really doesn’t care about Alice).
Is this example satisfying?
Thanks for the response in any case, I really enjoy these discussions! Would you like to do a dialogue sometime?
I consider ultra-BS a primarily ‘central route’ argument, as the practitioner uses explicit reasoning to support explicit narrative arguments. […]
Putting someone off balance, on the other hand, is more ‘peripheral route’ persuasion. There’s far more emphasis on the implicit messaging.
Ah! This distinction helped clarify a fair bit for me. Thank you!
…I think I might conclude that your implicit primers and vibes are very good at detecting implicit persuasion, which typically but not always has a correlation with dark artsy techniques.
I agree on all accounts here. I think I dumped most of my DADA skill points into implicit detection. And yes, the vibes thing isn’t a perfect correlation to Dark stuff, I totally agree.
Is this example satisfying?
It’s definitely helpful! The category still isn’t crisp in my mind, but it’s a lot clearer. Thank you!
Thanks for the response in any case, I really enjoy these discussions! Would you like to do a dialogue sometime?
I’ve really enjoyed this exchange too. Thank you!
And sure, I’d be up for a dialogue sometime. I don’t have a good intuition for what kind of thing goes well in dialogues yet, so maybe take the lead if & when you feel inspired to invite me into one?
I can try to provide examples. The indicators might be too vague for the examples to help much with though!
A few weeks ago I met a fellow who seems to hail from old-guard atheism. Turn-of-the-century “Down with religion!” type of stuff. He was leading a philosophy discussion group I was checking out. At some point he said something (I don’t remember what) that made me think he didn’t understand what Vervaeke calls “the meaning crisis”. So I brought it up. He started going into a kind of pressured debate mode that I intuitively recognized from back when I swam in activist atheism circles. I had a hard time pinning down the moves he was doing, but I could tell I felt a kind of pressure, like I was being socially & logically pulled into a boxing ring. I realized after a few beats that he must have interpreted what I was saying as an assertion that God (as he thought others thought of God) is real. I still don’t know what rhetorical tricks he was doing, and I doubt any of them were conscious on his part, but I could tell that something screwy was going on because of the way interacting with him became tense and how others around us got uneasy and shifted how they were conversing. (Some wanted to engage & help the logic, some wanted to change the subject.)
Another example: Around a week ago I bumped into a strange character who runs a strange bookstore. A type of strange that I see as being common between Vassar and Ziz and Crowley, if that gives you a flavor. He was clearly on his way out the door, but as he headed out he directed some of his… attention-stuff… at me. I’m still not sure what exactly he was doing. On the surface it looked normal: he handed me a pamphlet with some of the info about their new brick-and-mortar store, along with their online store’s details. But there was something he was doing that was obviously about… keeping me off-balance. I think it was a general social thing he does: I watched him do it with the young man who was clearly a friend to him and who was tending the store. A part of me was fascinated. But another part of me was throwing up alarm bells. It felt like some kind of unknown frame manipulation. I couldn’t point at exactly how I was being affected, but I knew that I was, because my inner feet felt less firmly on inner ground in a way that was some kind of strategic.
More blatantly, the way that streetside preachers used to find a corner on college campuses and use a loudspeaker to spout off fundamentalist literalist Christianity memes. It’s obvious to me now that the memetic strategy here isn’t “You hear my ideas and then agree.” It’s somehow related to the way that it spurs debate. Back in my grad school days, I’d see clusters of undergrads surrounding these preachers and trying to argue with them, both sides engaging in predetermined patter. It was quite strange. I could feel the pull to argue with the preacher myself! But why? It has a snare trap feeling to it. I don’t understand the exact mechanism. I might be able to come up with a just-so story. But looking back it’s obvious that there’s a being-sucked-in feeling that’s somehow part of the memetic strategy. It’s built into the rhetoric. So a first-line immune response is “Nope.” Even though I have little idea what it is that I’m noping out of. Just its vibe.
I don’t think all (any?) of these fall under what you’re calling “ultra-BS”. That’s kind of my point: I think my rhetoric detector is tracking vibes more than techniques, and you’re naming a technique category. Something like that.
I think this part stands alone, so I’ll reply to the rest separately.
Oooh, I think I can classify some of this!
So, about this, I think this is a typical case of status game esque ‘social cognition’. If membership in a certain group is a big part of your identity, the group can’t be wrong. (Imagine if you’re a devout Churchgoer, and someone suggests your priest may be one of many pedophiles). There’s an instinctive reaction of ‘well, church is a big part of my life, and makes me feel like a full, happy person, very good vibes… unlike pedophilia’ so they snap to defending their local priest. You may see the ‘happens in other places but not here’ defense. Social cognition isn’t a full proof dark arts happened, but it usually is a good indicator (since by nature it tends to be irrational). In this case it’s an atheist who bases status on being an athiest feeling their personal beliefs/worth are being attacked, and responding as a result. I’d read up on Will Storr’s The Status Game if you’re interested.
I think I can understand in general terms what might’ve happened. There’s a lot of ways to ‘suggest’ something without verbally saying it. Think of an advertisement having a pretty girl in the product (look at you, so fat and ugly, don’t you want to be more like us?). It’s not explicit, of course, that’s the point, but it’s meant to take peripheral instead of central route persuasion.
From a more ‘human’ example, I might think of a negotiator seating their rival in front of the curtains while the sun is shining through to disorient them, or a parent asking one sibling to do something after having just yelled at another. In all cases there’s a hidden message of sorts, which can at times be difficult to put into words but is usually felt as a vibe. I have difficulty describing it myself.
I think one I can describe might be the sandwich example (though this isn’t something I’ve seen in my own life). You have something important to talk about someone with, and they’re maintaining eye contact and ‘paying attention’, but they’re also nibbling on the sandwich and enjoying themselves. (indirect communication: This is not too big of an issue). Or maybe they put the sandwich down occasionally check their watch, and their half eaten sandwich (why are you making me wait? can’t you see I’m hungry and busy?).
I obviously can’t say what exactly they did. But I think vibe wise the effect was similar to some of the techniques I illustrated above. They did something, it wasn’t apparent what, for a desired effect. I’ll call it peripheral techniques of communication (as opposed to central).
I think the preacher example is similar. (implicit message: I’m attacking you, your tribal groups, your status, and offering you some free status right now for beating me in front of your friends. Why don’t you come give it a try?) What specific technique they used, I’m not sure, but I think it had the effect of communicating an implicit message (thus the reaction).
And yes, you’re right, none of these are ‘ultra-BS’, I consider them different techniques with a different purpose. I do think they are techniques though, and someone familiar with them can recognize them.
Yep, I think you’re basically right on all accounts. Maybe a little off with the atheist fellow, but because of context I didn’t think to share until reading your analysis, and what you said is close enough!
It’s funny, I’m pretty familiar with this level of analysis, but I still notice myself thinking a little differently about the bookstore guy in light of what you’ve said here. I know people do the unbalancing thing you’re talking about. (Heck, I used to quite a lot! And probably still do in ways I haven’t learned to notice. Charisma is a hell of a drug when you’re chronically nervous!) But I didn’t think to think of it in these terms. Now I’m reflecting on the incident and noticing “Oh, yeah, okay, I can pinpoint a bunch of tiny details when I think of it this way.”
The fact that I couldn’t tell whether any of these were “ultra-BS” is more the central point to me.
If I could trouble you to name it: Is there a more everyday kind of example of ultra-BS? Not in debate or politics?
Glad you appreciated my analysis!
Hm… I think we may have miscommunicated somewhere. From what I understand at least, what you saw was distinctly not ‘ultra-BS’ as I envision it.
In persuasion, students of rhetoric generally classify two types of persuasive styles, ‘central’ and ‘peripheral’, route, specifically. Whereas central route persuasion focuses more on overt appeals to logic, peripheral route focuses more on other factors. Consider, for instance, the difference between an advertisement extolling the nutritional benefits of their drink, as opposed to an ad for the same company showing a half naked girl sampling it. Both aim to ‘convince’ the consumer to buy their product, except one employs a much different strategy than the other.
More generally, central route persuasion is explicit. We want you to convince you of ‘X’, here are the arguments for ‘X’. The drink is nutritious and good for your health, you should Buy the Drink. Peripheral route persuasion is more implicit, though at times it’s no less subtle. This pretty and sexually appealing girl loves this drink, why don’t you? Doesn’t evolution make you predisposed to trust pretty people? Wouldn’t you want to be more like them? Buy the drink
I consider ultra-BS a primarily ‘central route’ argument, as the practitioner uses explicit reasoning to support explicit narrative arguments. It’s often ill intentioned sure, and clearly motivated, intellectually dishonest reasoning, but that’s besides the point. It still falls under the category of ‘central route’ arguments.
Putting someone off balance, on the other hand, is more ‘peripheral route’ persuasion. There’s far more emphasis on the implicit messaging. You don’t know what you’re doing, do you? Trust me instead, come on.
In the case of your atheist friend, it’s not really possible to tell what persuasion technique they used, because it wasn’t really clear. But the indicators you received were accurate, because under those conditions he would be incentivized to use dishonest techniques like ultra-BS. That’s not to say, however, that they did use ultra-BS!
In that sense, I think I might conclude that your implicit primers and vibes are very good at detecting implicit persuasion, which typically but not always has a correlation with dark artsy techniques. Dark Arts often relies on implicit messaging, because if the message were explicit (see with sexual advertising techniques) it would be, well… ridiculous. (’So I should buy your product just because one pretty person drunk it? What kinda logic is that?)
However, ‘ultra-BS’ is an explicit technique, which is why I believe your typical indicators failed. You saw the indicators for what you’re used to associating with ‘honest discussion’, indicators like evidence, a coherent narrative, and good presentation skills. In a interpersonal setting, these indicators likely would’ve been sufficient. Not so in politics.
That said...
This is a bit hard, since ‘ultra-BS’ is a technique designed for the environment of politics by a special kind of dishonest people. Regular people tend to be intellectually honest. You won’t see them support a policy one moment and oppose it the same evening. You also don’t see them wielding more sophisticated evidences and proofs in daily discussion, which is why we see ‘ultra-BS’ far less often in everyday life. If someone is pulling out evidence at all chances are they’ve already ‘won’ the argument. Regular people also tend to have far less stake/interest in their political positions, unlike say, debaters or politicians. The incentives and structure of the format is different.
The most similar example I can think of off the top of my head is a spat between domestic partners. Say, Alice and Bob.
Alice: You never take out the trash (evidence), look after the kids (evidence), or say you care about me (evidence). And now you’ve forgotten about our anniversary? (evidence) How dare you?? Do you really care about me? (narrative: Bob doesn’t care about Alice)
But then, this isn’t a perfect fit for ultra-BS, since 1) Alice isn’t necessarily aware she’s overgeneralizing 2) Alice doesn’t care about the specific examples she uses, she’s just as likely responding to a ‘vibe’ of laziness or lack of care from her partner. 3) The evidence is well… not very sophisticated.
But it general, I guess it’s similar in that Alice is supporting a dubious narrative with credible evidence (a pretty general summary of ‘ultra-BS’). Sure, Bob did do all these things, and probably cares for Alice in other ways which she isn’t acknowledging (or who knows, maybe he really doesn’t care about Alice).
Is this example satisfying?
Thanks for the response in any case, I really enjoy these discussions! Would you like to do a dialogue sometime?
Ah! This distinction helped clarify a fair bit for me. Thank you!
I agree on all accounts here. I think I dumped most of my DADA skill points into implicit detection. And yes, the vibes thing isn’t a perfect correlation to Dark stuff, I totally agree.
It’s definitely helpful! The category still isn’t crisp in my mind, but it’s a lot clearer. Thank you!
I’ve really enjoyed this exchange too. Thank you!
And sure, I’d be up for a dialogue sometime. I don’t have a good intuition for what kind of thing goes well in dialogues yet, so maybe take the lead if & when you feel inspired to invite me into one?
Glad you enjoyed!
Let me send a PM regarding a dialogue…