I just started Fire Upon the Deep yesterday. It’s confusing, and I don’t know why so many people seem to like it. I’m not really having fun because I don’t know what’s going on and I can’t keep anything or anyone straight. The plot threads have no obvious connection to each other and the author seems to be having way too much fun tantalizing me with incomplete worldbuilding details. I’m up to page 109: someone tell me what makes the other 500 pages worth reading, please.
It gets less confusing once you get used to the terminology the Tines have for talking about their subagents, and the rules for how those subagents interact. What I liked most about FUtD, and I think this is the source of its appeal, is how it fits many different scales and many different mind-types into the same universe, and explores their implications and interactions. But Vinge does tend to introduce strange types of minds without warning, and that does get confusing the first time you encounter each one.
Confirm as below that the things get tied together. I remember mostly just being curious about what the hell was happening for the first half or so then getting super excited about it for the later parts.
::goes and looks at the book in the vicinity of page 109::
Yeah, the main plot really hasn’t gotten started at all yet. Things get a lot more interesting around page 202 or so. Long story short, (rot13 for possible spoilers) gur guvat gung gur rkcrqvgvba va gur cebybthr hayrnfurq gheaf bhg gb or zhpu, zhpu jbefr guna nalbar rkcrpgrq, naq gur bayl ubcr bs fgbccvat vg zvtug or ba gung fuvc gung rfpncrq naq penfu-ynaqrq ba gur cynarg jvgu gur jbyirf...
I didn’t like it at all, the first time I read it.
Many years later, after reading and enjoying A Deepness in the Sky, I gave it another try, and this time liked it very much. Even though the books were written in the opposite order, I wonder whether it helps to read Deepness first?
I did not enjoy it or see any point in continuing the book after the ship of children landed on the planet of the dogs (about page 25), but then I do not enjoy or see any point in most sci-fi. (Sorry if that sounded condescending to those that do.)
Loved Vinge’s short story “Cookie Monster” though—probably because being fundamentally confused about the nature of one’s situation resonates with me, and Vinge explored an interesting theme without trying to impress me with his ability to imagine detailed exotic worlds.
I read it last month and really enjoyed it. I didn’t have much trouble keeping track of names and places*, and I liked the epic scale. The depictions of superintelligences were better than a lot of others I’ve seen, and the aliens were, if humanlike in their behavior, interesting in their physiology. The “tantalizing me with incomplete world-building details” was a plus for me, but if it’s not to your taste that’s understandable.
*There is one thing I never understood though: ubj Gjveyvc bs gur Zvfgf’ pbzzragf nobhg urkncbqvn jrer eryrinag. V tbg gung rl jnf evtug nobhg gur mbar fgbezf orvat eryngrq gb gur oyvtug, naq gigebcrf fnlf Gjveyvc jnf evtug nobhg rirelguvat, ohg V qba’g frr jurer urkncbqvn pbzrf va. Could someone explain that?
Go ahead and put it down. It is a ‘high concept’ novel. The characters are absurd and unsympathetic, the plot is even more absurd and is resolved by a Deus ex galactica. As the Penguin recommends, read A Deepness in the Sky for a richer plot, better characters, and some really remarkable world-building. But then don’t bother to come back to Fire. Unless you are a Doc Savage fan. IMHO.
I have the exact opposite view. I liked A Fire Upon the Deep and felt that Deepness had a woefully anthropomorphic and unimaginative alien world, cartoonish cast and a plot that drags on.
Aside from these two I’ve read Marooned in Realtime and True Names, and both were quite good. Overall I’d label Vinge a decent, albeit clearly second rate writer.
I suppose you are right that the alien world is unrealistically human-like—at least psychologically. The world-building that I particularly admired was the variety of human cultures that were briefly presented—the extra verisimilitude arising from the level of extraneous detail offered. (Did I just hear someone whisper: “Conjunction Fallacy”?)
One of the points in Deepness is that we almost exclusively experience the aliens as translated by the human “translators”: due to their extreme skills, they are able to make the non-human easy for the humans to relate to.
In a brief glimpse near the end of the story, Vinge gives us a hint that perhaps the aliens aren’t as human-like as the “translators” has made them seem.
I just started Fire Upon the Deep yesterday. It’s confusing, and I don’t know why so many people seem to like it. I’m not really having fun because I don’t know what’s going on and I can’t keep anything or anyone straight. The plot threads have no obvious connection to each other and the author seems to be having way too much fun tantalizing me with incomplete worldbuilding details. I’m up to page 109: someone tell me what makes the other 500 pages worth reading, please.
It gets less confusing once you get used to the terminology the Tines have for talking about their subagents, and the rules for how those subagents interact. What I liked most about FUtD, and I think this is the source of its appeal, is how it fits many different scales and many different mind-types into the same universe, and explores their implications and interactions. But Vinge does tend to introduce strange types of minds without warning, and that does get confusing the first time you encounter each one.
I had advance warning about the wolf packs, so those aren’t too hard to figure out, but it’s only so much help.
Confirm as below that the things get tied together. I remember mostly just being curious about what the hell was happening for the first half or so then getting super excited about it for the later parts.
::goes and looks at the book in the vicinity of page 109::
Yeah, the main plot really hasn’t gotten started at all yet. Things get a lot more interesting around page 202 or so. Long story short, (rot13 for possible spoilers) gur guvat gung gur rkcrqvgvba va gur cebybthr hayrnfurq gheaf bhg gb or zhpu, zhpu jbefr guna nalbar rkcrpgrq, naq gur bayl ubcr bs fgbccvat vg zvtug or ba gung fuvc gung rfpncrq naq penfu-ynaqrq ba gur cynarg jvgu gur jbyirf...
I didn’t like it at all, the first time I read it.
Many years later, after reading and enjoying A Deepness in the Sky, I gave it another try, and this time liked it very much. Even though the books were written in the opposite order, I wonder whether it helps to read Deepness first?
Huh.
I adored this book, but if you’re not enjoying it by now you probably won’t enjoy it if you keep reading it.
I did not enjoy it or see any point in continuing the book after the ship of children landed on the planet of the dogs (about page 25), but then I do not enjoy or see any point in most sci-fi. (Sorry if that sounded condescending to those that do.)
Loved Vinge’s short story “Cookie Monster” though—probably because being fundamentally confused about the nature of one’s situation resonates with me, and Vinge explored an interesting theme without trying to impress me with his ability to imagine detailed exotic worlds.
I read it last month and really enjoyed it. I didn’t have much trouble keeping track of names and places*, and I liked the epic scale. The depictions of superintelligences were better than a lot of others I’ve seen, and the aliens were, if humanlike in their behavior, interesting in their physiology. The “tantalizing me with incomplete world-building details” was a plus for me, but if it’s not to your taste that’s understandable.
*There is one thing I never understood though: ubj Gjveyvc bs gur Zvfgf’ pbzzragf nobhg urkncbqvn jrer eryrinag. V tbg gung rl jnf evtug nobhg gur mbar fgbezf orvat eryngrq gb gur oyvtug, naq gigebcrf fnlf Gjveyvc jnf evtug nobhg rirelguvat, ohg V qba’g frr jurer urkncbqvn pbzrf va. Could someone explain that?
Gur npghny pneevref bs gur Oyvtug jrer gur Fxebqrf, juvpu unir fvk jurryf. Fvk yrtf jnf n genafyngvba reebe.
Oh, that makes sense! Thanks.
I just really love the Tines (especially Jeffrey and his puppies), but I think you already knew that =)
Go ahead and put it down. It is a ‘high concept’ novel. The characters are absurd and unsympathetic, the plot is even more absurd and is resolved by a Deus ex galactica. As the Penguin recommends, read A Deepness in the Sky for a richer plot, better characters, and some really remarkable world-building. But then don’t bother to come back to Fire. Unless you are a Doc Savage fan. IMHO.
I have the exact opposite view. I liked A Fire Upon the Deep and felt that Deepness had a woefully anthropomorphic and unimaginative alien world, cartoonish cast and a plot that drags on.
Aside from these two I’ve read Marooned in Realtime and True Names, and both were quite good. Overall I’d label Vinge a decent, albeit clearly second rate writer.
I suppose you are right that the alien world is unrealistically human-like—at least psychologically. The world-building that I particularly admired was the variety of human cultures that were briefly presented—the extra verisimilitude arising from the level of extraneous detail offered. (Did I just hear someone whisper: “Conjunction Fallacy”?)
One of the points in Deepness is that we almost exclusively experience the aliens as translated by the human “translators”: due to their extreme skills, they are able to make the non-human easy for the humans to relate to.
In a brief glimpse near the end of the story, Vinge gives us a hint that perhaps the aliens aren’t as human-like as the “translators” has made them seem.