Wouldn’t dropping the rationality tagline instead convince people even more thoroughly that it’s not actually about rationality, but rather something else?
That being said, I agree with those concerns. LW doesn’t have an agenda per se (beyond being sponsored by the SIAI), but the LW majority clearly does. While harsh, “a bunch of fringe technophiles” accurately describes a significant, and vocal, fraction of people here.
I wonder if there is such a thing as a non-fringe technophile. Who are they and what do they think/do ?
Tech is cool, but further improvement is scary?
Tech is cool, but it’ll never be able to do (something that sounds scary to many people but is entirely reasonable from a reductionist/materialist perspective) ?
Nowhere have I seen the dangers of AI more focused on than in LessWrong—as such I don’t think LessWrong could be accurately summarized as being particularly technophilic.
I want to see who you summarize as particularly technophilic.
Have you ever met a technophobe? Opposition to life extension. Fear of nanotubes. Tolkein’s aesthetics. Attraction to “natural remedies” and distrust of traditional medicine. Shouting ‘hubris!’. Saying “you can’t” in revulsed tones—not “it’s not possible, look at my model” or “it would make you a bad person”, just a gut rejection. Earlier, opposition to anaesthesia during childbirth and to industrialisation.
I would say something like Ray Kurzweil’s “The Singularity is Near” is particularly technophilic; it embraces basically every belief that has ever been associated with the word singularity, while sweeping essentially all concerns of danger or ethics under the rug essentially by hand-waving.
I would certainly say that LessWrongians tend to be at least slightly more technophilic than average people, but not much more than I would expect for a group that is centered around a website. Having conversations with other people, I tend to find that they appreciate modern technology and are cautiously optimistic about near future technology and concerned about medium to long term technology; the standard LessWrong positions seem to me to be fairly in line with this except for being far more thought-out.
EDIT: obviously my anecdotal evidence is highly incomplete and should mean very little.
Seems to me you could replace “fringe technophiles” with ‘white guys not named Harold,’ and have just as valid a statement.
I assume you mean that your description gets at what a random member of the public would likely notice first. This does seem close to the truth. (Although a more literal account of what they’d perceive first would involve some word like ‘rationality’ or ‘reason’, perhaps in connection with the term ‘worship’.) But the term “fringe technophiles,” by itself, would not lead anyone to expect a community that asks you to justify your belief in detail if you say technology will not destroy the world.
Except the agenda of the fraction I’m speaking about is not “technology will not destroy the world”. It’s “friendly AI and uploads will lead us to a bright perfect techno-utopia”. And as I said multiple times before, I don’t buy it.
There are several things you’ve said you disliked; most vocally, predictions of a (positive?) Singularity and HPMOR. However, you haven’t argued against them much, just said you disliked them.
If what you’re trying to do is just putting up signs reading “Not everyone on LW likes this”, this probably works. But I (and presumbably most people who either like or dislike those things) would like to hear your arguments for it in more detail, preferably with some back-and-forth if you’re willing to engage. What’s in it for you is that it can actually improve the consensus, as opposed to sticking a little [disputed] banner on it.
Besides what MixedNuts said: your description does not get at our most LW-specific beliefs. It doesn’t even get at all the claims you’ve said you disagreed with.
Wouldn’t dropping the rationality tagline instead convince people even more thoroughly that it’s not actually about rationality, but rather something else?
That being said, I agree with those concerns. LW doesn’t have an agenda per se (beyond being sponsored by the SIAI), but the LW majority clearly does. While harsh, “a bunch of fringe technophiles” accurately describes a significant, and vocal, fraction of people here.
I wonder if there is such a thing as a non-fringe technophile. Who are they and what do they think/do ?
Tech is cool, but further improvement is scary? Tech is cool, but it’ll never be able to do (something that sounds scary to many people but is entirely reasonable from a reductionist/materialist perspective) ?
Nowhere have I seen the dangers of AI more focused on than in LessWrong—as such I don’t think LessWrong could be accurately summarized as being particularly technophilic.
I want to see who you summarize as particularly technophilic.
Have you ever met a technophobe? Opposition to life extension. Fear of nanotubes. Tolkein’s aesthetics. Attraction to “natural remedies” and distrust of traditional medicine. Shouting ‘hubris!’. Saying “you can’t” in revulsed tones—not “it’s not possible, look at my model” or “it would make you a bad person”, just a gut rejection. Earlier, opposition to anaesthesia during childbirth and to industrialisation.
I would say something like Ray Kurzweil’s “The Singularity is Near” is particularly technophilic; it embraces basically every belief that has ever been associated with the word singularity, while sweeping essentially all concerns of danger or ethics under the rug essentially by hand-waving.
I would certainly say that LessWrongians tend to be at least slightly more technophilic than average people, but not much more than I would expect for a group that is centered around a website. Having conversations with other people, I tend to find that they appreciate modern technology and are cautiously optimistic about near future technology and concerned about medium to long term technology; the standard LessWrong positions seem to me to be fairly in line with this except for being far more thought-out.
EDIT: obviously my anecdotal evidence is highly incomplete and should mean very little.
You mean that there is no official mission statement? I’m pretty sure that it is part of a mission, though.
Seems to me you could replace “fringe technophiles” with ‘white guys not named Harold,’ and have just as valid a statement.
I assume you mean that your description gets at what a random member of the public would likely notice first. This does seem close to the truth. (Although a more literal account of what they’d perceive first would involve some word like ‘rationality’ or ‘reason’, perhaps in connection with the term ‘worship’.) But the term “fringe technophiles,” by itself, would not lead anyone to expect a community that asks you to justify your belief in detail if you say technology will not destroy the world.
Except the agenda of the fraction I’m speaking about is not “technology will not destroy the world”. It’s “friendly AI and uploads will lead us to a bright perfect techno-utopia”. And as I said multiple times before, I don’t buy it.
There are several things you’ve said you disliked; most vocally, predictions of a (positive?) Singularity and HPMOR. However, you haven’t argued against them much, just said you disliked them.
If what you’re trying to do is just putting up signs reading “Not everyone on LW likes this”, this probably works. But I (and presumbably most people who either like or dislike those things) would like to hear your arguments for it in more detail, preferably with some back-and-forth if you’re willing to engage. What’s in it for you is that it can actually improve the consensus, as opposed to sticking a little [disputed] banner on it.
Who says that?
Besides what MixedNuts said: your description does not get at our most LW-specific beliefs. It doesn’t even get at all the claims you’ve said you disagreed with.