This is accurate. I tried to base the story on emotion first and reason second*, since I think most readers’ objections to deathism are based on emotion, and because emotional persuasion is the comparative advantage of a story over an essay. I remember someone else was working on a similar fic that’s much more strongly based on debate and argument.
I tried to steelman deathism’s emotional position. For example, when Syhggreful qvrf, vg ybbxf yvxr snyyvat nfyrrc juvyr fheebhaqrq ol ybivat snzvyl. Guvf vf va funec pbagenfg gb zl bja rkcrevrapr jvgu qrngu. V’ir jngpurq guerr tenaqcneragf qvr, naq abg bar bs gurz xarj zl anzr, ng gur raq.
*Emotion and reason are not opposites, but they are different things. Substitute “system 1” and “system 2″ if you like.
Did you optimize your emotional arguments for death, or did you simply use the stock emotional basis? Celestia is smart enough to use every dark art known in order to convince others (including afterlife), rather than going straight to aggressive blackmail.
I’m still not sure why the new alicorns put up with Celestia’s rules; once she resorted to threats of violence, it seems like it should have been pointed out she would lose a contest of violence.
I wanted to make the narrative support deathism to the point where it didn’t seem like an obviously false position to the reader. I tried to do this by making the deathist advocates the characters who the fandom associates with reason and wisdom, by making the anti-deathist advocate aggressive and uncompromising, and by emphasizing that most everyone liked the status quo just fine. I stopped doing this sort of thing in the last act. (In hindsight, “steelman” is the wrong term for what I did. Sorry about that.)
I think I was successful at the above. Readers who didn’t start as transhumanists were unable to tell what my own position was.
Celestia is smart enough to use every dark art known in order to convince others
Smart enough, but not vicious enough. This characterization of Celestia wouldn’t do anything she felt was dishonest. My intent was to show her as a tragic character doing the wrong thing for understandable reasons.
I’m still not sure why the new alicorns put up with Celestia’s rules; once she resorted to threats of violence, it seems like it should have been pointed out she would lose a contest of violence.
Partly because they are happy colorful ponies and they prefer not to solve problems through force. Partly because Twilight still craves Celestia’s approval.
Thanks for all your feedback; this is a useful conversation. I am strongly considering taking your earlier suggestion and adding the “it’s just ponies” theme to the big confrontation with Celestia.
I don’t think Celestia could be not vicious enough to fail to use dark arts of persuasion, but still be vicious enough to threaten a thousand years of solitude.
I agree that violence is not appropriate to the genre, but the threat is also inappropriate. Perhaps explicitly communicating ‘we respect you, but we think that you are mistaken on this one issue’ would help make Celestia seem like the Bad Guy in the end, for demanding banishment and other unreasonable things of the new alicorns.
This is accurate. I tried to base the story on emotion first and reason second*, since I think most readers’ objections to deathism are based on emotion, and because emotional persuasion is the comparative advantage of a story over an essay. I remember someone else was working on a similar fic that’s much more strongly based on debate and argument.
I tried to steelman deathism’s emotional position. For example, when Syhggreful qvrf, vg ybbxf yvxr snyyvat nfyrrc juvyr fheebhaqrq ol ybivat snzvyl. Guvf vf va funec pbagenfg gb zl bja rkcrevrapr jvgu qrngu. V’ir jngpurq guerr tenaqcneragf qvr, naq abg bar bs gurz xarj zl anzr, ng gur raq.
*Emotion and reason are not opposites, but they are different things. Substitute “system 1” and “system 2″ if you like.
Did you optimize your emotional arguments for death, or did you simply use the stock emotional basis? Celestia is smart enough to use every dark art known in order to convince others (including afterlife), rather than going straight to aggressive blackmail.
I’m still not sure why the new alicorns put up with Celestia’s rules; once she resorted to threats of violence, it seems like it should have been pointed out she would lose a contest of violence.
I wanted to make the narrative support deathism to the point where it didn’t seem like an obviously false position to the reader. I tried to do this by making the deathist advocates the characters who the fandom associates with reason and wisdom, by making the anti-deathist advocate aggressive and uncompromising, and by emphasizing that most everyone liked the status quo just fine. I stopped doing this sort of thing in the last act. (In hindsight, “steelman” is the wrong term for what I did. Sorry about that.)
I think I was successful at the above. Readers who didn’t start as transhumanists were unable to tell what my own position was.
Smart enough, but not vicious enough. This characterization of Celestia wouldn’t do anything she felt was dishonest. My intent was to show her as a tragic character doing the wrong thing for understandable reasons.
Partly because they are happy colorful ponies and they prefer not to solve problems through force. Partly because Twilight still craves Celestia’s approval.
Thanks for all your feedback; this is a useful conversation. I am strongly considering taking your earlier suggestion and adding the “it’s just ponies” theme to the big confrontation with Celestia.
I don’t think Celestia could be not vicious enough to fail to use dark arts of persuasion, but still be vicious enough to threaten a thousand years of solitude.
I agree that violence is not appropriate to the genre, but the threat is also inappropriate. Perhaps explicitly communicating ‘we respect you, but we think that you are mistaken on this one issue’ would help make Celestia seem like the Bad Guy in the end, for demanding banishment and other unreasonable things of the new alicorns.
That spoilered part was pro deathist? I cried for like half an hour after that, and I read all of Background Pony without crying.