Let’s suppose—for I am no expert on the history, nor am I well placed to evaluate your expertise—that you’re right, and that indeed the US in the early 1950s was stuffed with communist infiltrators and communism-sympathizers.
I don’t think there is much dispute on the large scale of communist infiltration at the time, though obviously it isn’t often mentioned or emphasised. One can however make a good case that what is by some interpreted as communist sympathy wasn’t really such. One say easily use the same standards that are often used when declaring some historical figure had Fascist connections or sympathies, to go on and prove that the US at the time was a Communist country in the sense of being run by Communists. :) I think such a standard is pretty silly one though, both for fascism and communism.
Would our hypothetical history-reviewing rationalist, then, also conclude that communist infiltration—even on the grand scale you say it achieved in McCarthy’s time—was not such a bad thing?
Sure why not. The US of the 1950s is a shining gem of what well meaning technocrats can do for the middle class. One can either credit them for it, or say it would have been even better without them, that is open to debate. But hindsight bias is at play here I think. The Cold War period could easily have ended in a horrible way, including the end of the modern civilization. We where very lucky.
If you looked at Stalin’s USSR in the 1950s, knew about the Gulags, the famines of the 1930s, the atrocities of the Russian Civil war, the mass graves of Eastern Europe and the aggressive foreign policy (remember Finland and how they basically divided up Poland with Hitler?) now freshly armed with nuclear weapons (developed with the significant aid of spies in the US leaking the tech!)...
Isn’t fearing the potentially catastrophic outcome of Communist sympathy and infiltration a really understandable position to hold?
I think such a standard is a pretty silly one though, both for fascism and communism.
Me too. I’m not sure why you even bring it up.
The Cold War period could easily have ended in a horrible way
It certainly could, but what does that have to do with the question at issue here? Are you suggesting that a US filled with communist infiltrators and communism-sympathizers was more likely to turn the Cold War into a civilization-ending catastrophe? I’d have thought (perhaps naively) that if there was so much communist sympathy at such high levels that it’s not flat-out insane to say “that the US at the time was a Communist country in the sense of being run by Communists” then that would have made large-scale war with the USSR less likely, rather than more.
Isn’t fearing the potentially catastrophic outcome [...] a really understandable position to hold?
It certainly is. I think you may be mistaking the point I’m making, which isn’t actually “so being filled with Communist infiltrators isn’t so bad after all” but “so, are you really sure the world looks the way it would if the 1950s USA were full of Communist infiltrators?”.
Because it often is used when talking about fascism.
It certainly is. I think you may be mistaking the point I’m making, which isn’t actually “so being filled with Communist infiltrators isn’t so bad after all” but “so, are you really sure the world looks the way it would if the 1950s USA were full of Communist infiltrators?”.
Well we know they had enough infiltrators to steal detailed info about a superweapon for starters, so I’d tend to say: Yes, it does.
I’d have thought (perhaps naively) that if there was so much communist sympathy at such high levels that it’s not flat-out insane to say “that the US at the time was a Communist country in the sense of being run by Communists” then that would have made large-scale war with the USSR less likely, rather than more.
I think it could have escalated to one however. China was for quite a while in the unfortunate situation of having a few nuclear weapons but not enough for MAD. The Soviet Union did have enough to wipe China off the map.
enough infiltrators to steal detailed info about a superweapon
That would be … one infiltrator?
(Of course I’m not suggesting that there was only ever one Communist infiltrator in the US. Of course there were more. Plenty of capitalist infiltrators in the USSR too, no doubt.)
Plenty of capitalist infiltrators in the USSR too, no doubt.
I’m Russian, and I can say that the “capitalist infiltrators” were, in a mirror reflection of the situation in the US, just a subset—a really large subset—of Soviet intelligentsia; their memes were “human rights” and “peaceful coexistence” and such on a far-mode level, and the feeling that a society that’s so much wealthier and more comfortable to live in must be the “right” one on a near-mode level. And they did help dismantle the USSR when the hour struck. What followed is complicated.
(Dear Reader: doesn’t this sort of thing make you feel that Vlad and others should more seriously inspect the real culture, politics and ideology of the USSR when talking about such “Soviet influences” or “Soviet subversion”, so that it doesn’t appear in their writings as simply the Other, an unexamined nefarious force?)
EDIT: Vlad has already made a disclaimer that’s kind of useful. That’s very nice of him, although I’d really like to see some actual examination of the USSR from him. Think of which, I don’t think he ever publicly examined the Socialist ideology in detail, despite the numerous times he denounced some of its particular results.
doesn’t this sort of thing make you feel that Vlad and others should more seriously inspect the real culture, politics and ideology of the USSR when talking about such “Soviet influences” or “Soviet subversion”,
Keep in mind that the memes the USSR was using for memetic warfare were not always the same ones it was using for internal propaganda.
Yup, but the people making both external and internal propaganda must have been influenced by some memes, whether USSR-mainstream, radical, doublethink-heavy or even disapproved ones. I want someone who’s denouncing Soviet/communist influence to look at what the people at the source of that influence thought, in detail.
I don’t think there is much dispute on the large scale of communist infiltration at the time, though obviously it isn’t often mentioned or emphasised. One can however make a good case that what is by some interpreted as communist sympathy wasn’t really such. One say easily use the same standards that are often used when declaring some historical figure had Fascist connections or sympathies, to go on and prove that the US at the time was a Communist country in the sense of being run by Communists. :) I think such a standard is pretty silly one though, both for fascism and communism.
Sure why not. The US of the 1950s is a shining gem of what well meaning technocrats can do for the middle class. One can either credit them for it, or say it would have been even better without them, that is open to debate. But hindsight bias is at play here I think. The Cold War period could easily have ended in a horrible way, including the end of the modern civilization. We where very lucky.
If you looked at Stalin’s USSR in the 1950s, knew about the Gulags, the famines of the 1930s, the atrocities of the Russian Civil war, the mass graves of Eastern Europe and the aggressive foreign policy (remember Finland and how they basically divided up Poland with Hitler?) now freshly armed with nuclear weapons (developed with the significant aid of spies in the US leaking the tech!)...
Isn’t fearing the potentially catastrophic outcome of Communist sympathy and infiltration a really understandable position to hold?
Me too. I’m not sure why you even bring it up.
It certainly could, but what does that have to do with the question at issue here? Are you suggesting that a US filled with communist infiltrators and communism-sympathizers was more likely to turn the Cold War into a civilization-ending catastrophe? I’d have thought (perhaps naively) that if there was so much communist sympathy at such high levels that it’s not flat-out insane to say “that the US at the time was a Communist country in the sense of being run by Communists” then that would have made large-scale war with the USSR less likely, rather than more.
It certainly is. I think you may be mistaking the point I’m making, which isn’t actually “so being filled with Communist infiltrators isn’t so bad after all” but “so, are you really sure the world looks the way it would if the 1950s USA were full of Communist infiltrators?”.
Because it often is used when talking about fascism.
Well we know they had enough infiltrators to steal detailed info about a superweapon for starters, so I’d tend to say: Yes, it does.
It didn’t seem to do much for making war between the USSR and China less likley.
Yes, but it never was a nuclear war.
I think it could have escalated to one however. China was for quite a while in the unfortunate situation of having a few nuclear weapons but not enough for MAD. The Soviet Union did have enough to wipe China off the map.
That would be … one infiltrator?
(Of course I’m not suggesting that there was only ever one Communist infiltrator in the US. Of course there were more. Plenty of capitalist infiltrators in the USSR too, no doubt.)
I’m Russian, and I can say that the “capitalist infiltrators” were, in a mirror reflection of the situation in the US, just a subset—a really large subset—of Soviet intelligentsia; their memes were “human rights” and “peaceful coexistence” and such on a far-mode level, and the feeling that a society that’s so much wealthier and more comfortable to live in must be the “right” one on a near-mode level. And they did help dismantle the USSR when the hour struck. What followed is complicated.
(Dear Reader: doesn’t this sort of thing make you feel that Vlad and others should more seriously inspect the real culture, politics and ideology of the USSR when talking about such “Soviet influences” or “Soviet subversion”, so that it doesn’t appear in their writings as simply the Other, an unexamined nefarious force?)
EDIT: Vlad has already made a disclaimer that’s kind of useful. That’s very nice of him, although I’d really like to see some actual examination of the USSR from him. Think of which, I don’t think he ever publicly examined the Socialist ideology in detail, despite the numerous times he denounced some of its particular results.
Keep in mind that the memes the USSR was using for memetic warfare were not always the same ones it was using for internal propaganda.
Yup, but the people making both external and internal propaganda must have been influenced by some memes, whether USSR-mainstream, radical, doublethink-heavy or even disapproved ones. I want someone who’s denouncing Soviet/communist influence to look at what the people at the source of that influence thought, in detail.
More importantly, communist “nationalism” isn’t quite the same as communist collaboration, or any other form of “treason”.