It’s good to hear these complaints. I’m not sure if they’ll stop soon, though. Most of the objectionable gender-related material is collecting dust deep in the LW archives… it feels like we’ve gotten better since then to me, probably as a result of complaints like these, but that stuff is going to be an ongoing karma leak as people stumble across it. (Maybe link to the LW Women series at the top and make it clear that it’s there for historical purposes only? Or link to the series from here or the sequences page or something? If we aren’t linking to it at all, it may not be found by future readers.)
One of the anonymous women complains about the behavior of men in male-dominated groups, and says that LW reminds her of those male-dominated groups. Well, I don’t think I’ve seen much of what she’s worried about in actual LW meetups—people have always struck me as fairly warm and friendly, if a bit socially awkward. It’s possible that LW would get these sort of complaints even if we actually fix all the major problems with male-dominated groups, and just continued to look like a male-dominated group in other ways.
I’ve noticed that I sometimes complain to myself internally about “things that women do”, but when I try to think of specific cases where specific women I know did the thing I’m complaining internally about, I don’t really come up with anything. In the same way, some of the complaints here seem to me to be about things that happen rarely or not at all on LW. For example, off the top of my head I can’t recall a reading single sneery comment about unattractive women (and I also never observed them getting ignored at meetups, FWIW, and I for one would certainly not want to see that happen). But maybe my perception is skewed—I’d appreciate being corrected if that’s the case.
I’m somewhat in favor of cutting out gender discussions altogether. It’s apparently pretty easy for me to accidentally offend women when I say stuff about gender, and posting on a public forum seems like an expensive way to improve my model. I’m ambivalent about posting this comment, for instance, because it seems likely that someone will find a way to be offended by it in a way that I didn’t expect, and I don’t particularly want to offend anyone :(
For example, off the top of my head I can’t recall a reading single sneery comment about unattractive women (and I also never observed them getting ignored at meetups,
I’ve seen Roissy recommended as though anyone would be delighted by reading him. He’s a very sneery fellow. On the other hand that was a year or more ago, which is several eternities in internet time.
On the other hand, the perceived friendliness issues are ongoing.
A possibly useful distinction: courtesy vs. cordiality. Courtesy means a moderate level of respect which includes saying “I disagree” rather than “You’re wrong”. Cordiality means giving positive indications of liking.
They blur into each other. I would read “Thank you” as mostly courteous and “Thank you!” as cordial.
I can sympathize with your desire to not offend—I’m like that about race. However, reading is cheaper than making mistakes in public, and can be fairly educational.
It’s good to hear these complaints. I’m not sure if they’ll stop soon, though. Most of the objectionable gender-related material is collecting dust deep in the LW archives… it feels like we’ve gotten better since then to me, probably as a result of complaints like these, but that stuff is going to be an ongoing karma leak as people stumble across it. (Maybe link to the LW Women series at the top and make it clear that it’s there for historical purposes only? Or link to the series from here or the sequences page or something? If we aren’t linking to it at all, it may not be found by future readers.)
One of the anonymous women complains about the behavior of men in male-dominated groups, and says that LW reminds her of those male-dominated groups. Well, I don’t think I’ve seen much of what she’s worried about in actual LW meetups—people have always struck me as fairly warm and friendly, if a bit socially awkward. It’s possible that LW would get these sort of complaints even if we actually fix all the major problems with male-dominated groups, and just continued to look like a male-dominated group in other ways.
I’ve noticed that I sometimes complain to myself internally about “things that women do”, but when I try to think of specific cases where specific women I know did the thing I’m complaining internally about, I don’t really come up with anything. In the same way, some of the complaints here seem to me to be about things that happen rarely or not at all on LW. For example, off the top of my head I can’t recall a reading single sneery comment about unattractive women (and I also never observed them getting ignored at meetups, FWIW, and I for one would certainly not want to see that happen). But maybe my perception is skewed—I’d appreciate being corrected if that’s the case.
I’m somewhat in favor of cutting out gender discussions altogether. It’s apparently pretty easy for me to accidentally offend women when I say stuff about gender, and posting on a public forum seems like an expensive way to improve my model. I’m ambivalent about posting this comment, for instance, because it seems likely that someone will find a way to be offended by it in a way that I didn’t expect, and I don’t particularly want to offend anyone :(
I’ve seen Roissy recommended as though anyone would be delighted by reading him. He’s a very sneery fellow. On the other hand that was a year or more ago, which is several eternities in internet time.
On the other hand, the perceived friendliness issues are ongoing.
A possibly useful distinction: courtesy vs. cordiality. Courtesy means a moderate level of respect which includes saying “I disagree” rather than “You’re wrong”. Cordiality means giving positive indications of liking.
They blur into each other. I would read “Thank you” as mostly courteous and “Thank you!” as cordial.
I can sympathize with your desire to not offend—I’m like that about race. However, reading is cheaper than making mistakes in public, and can be fairly educational.