I think you are framing the question in order to presuppose a conclusion. This is an error that is just as endemic on LessWrong as it is everywhere else.
If person A has reason X to believe that the result of person B’s introspection is wrong, which is the more respectful course of action?
person A : person B, your account of your internal experiences may be wrong because of X.
person A : meh, person B can’t handle the truth, I’ll just shut up and say nothing.
The first alternative is designed to look nice, respectful, and false, and the second to look nasty, disrespectful, and true. The bottom line is “Niceness is dishonesty”, and the example was invented to support it.
Compare this with an example from the original post:
For a specific example, I was asked whether I was more of a thinker or feeler and I said I was pretty balanced. He retorted that I was more of a thinker.
This does not fall into either of those categories. It looks like this:
person A: no you’re not!
Which is what person A would say if they spoke honestly while thinking “meh, person B can’t handle the truth, I’ll just shut up and say nothing.” Person A appears to be running an internal monologue that goes: “I know the truth. You do not know the truth. I have reasons for my beliefs, therefore I am right. Therefore your reasons for your beliefs must be wrong. Therefore you should take correction from me. If you don’t, you’re even more wrong. You can’t handle the truth. I can handle the truth. Therefore I am right. (continue on auto-repeat)”
That, at least, is what I see, when I see those two alternatives.
The real problem here is what person A is actually thinking, and the invisibility of that process to themselves. For it is written:
The way a belief feels from inside, is that you seem to be looking straight at reality.
As long as A is running that monologue, how to express themselves is going to look to them like a conflict between “niceness” and “truth”. And however they express themselves, that monologue is likely to come through to B, because it will leak out all over.
I was not arguing about the specific example given in the OP, where he (the person with whom submitter B was arguing) was apparently unable or unwilling to provide evidence for his assertion that she was mistaken about herself. You, and submitter B, may be entirely correct about the person she was arguing with.
Perhaps I am overestimating the sanity of this place, but I do hope (and expect) that if similar arguments occur on this forum, evidence will (should) be put forward. In this place dedicated, among other things, to awareness of the many failure modes of the human brain, to how you (yes you. And I, too) may be totally wrong about so many things, in this place, the hypothesis “I may be mistaken about myself; I should listen to the other person’s evidence on this matter” is not a hypothesis that should be ignored. (note how submitter B does not consider this hypothesis in her example, and indeed she may have been correct to not consider it, but as stated I’m arguing in general here).
I am the one who has spent millions of minutes in this mind, able to directly experience what’s going on
inside of it. They have spent, at this point, maybe a few hundred minutes observing it from the outside, yet
they act like they’re experts.
The homeopath who has treated thousands of patients, should listen to the high-school chemistry student who has evidence that homeopathy doesn’t work. The physics crackpot who has worked on their theory of everything for decades should listen to the student of physics who points out that it fails to predict the results of an experiment. And the human, who has spent all their life as a human in a human body, should listen to the student of psychology, who may know many things about themselves that they are yet ignorant of.
The homeopath who has treated thousands of patients, should listen to the high-school chemistry student who has evidence that homeopathy doesn’t work. The physics crackpot who has worked on their theory of everything for decades should listen to the student of physics who points out that it fails to predict the results of an experiment.
Wow.
After reading just what was presented in the anecdote, you have strong enough belief that the submitter was wrong about her own mind, and her programmer boyfriend was right, that you’ll compare her to frauds and crackpots whose ideas have vanishingly small probability.
you have strong enough belief that the submitter was wrong about her own mind,
and her programmer boyfriend was right
No, no, certainly not, I made it clear that I was arguing in general and could not comment on the specific example given (come on, I say this twice in the post you quote).
that you’ll compare her to frauds and crackpots whose ideas have vanishingly small probability.
Where do you get that probability mass from?
Let me repeat the argument she made
I am the one who has spent millions of minutes in this mind, able to directly experience what’s going on inside of it.
This sort of argument, “I have observed this phenomenon for far longer than you did, therefore I am vastly more likely to be right about this than you are”, is very vulnerable to confirmation bias (among other biases), where the speaker will more easily remember events that fit her hypothesis than events which didn’t. This argument is a stereotypical crackpot argument, I gave two examples but I can (alas) give many more. It is virtually never a good argument. Someone who is actually sitting on top of mountains of evidence for a certain hypothesis need not resort to this argument, they can just show the evidence!
How often have I seen crackpots use this argument? Dozens of times. How often have I seen non-crackpots use it? I recall only one occasion, two if you include the OP. How often have I seen people who have actually carefully collected lots of evidence use this argument? Never. (Is my memory on this subject susceptible to confirmation bias? Ha! Yes, of course it is.). Is it any wonder then, that my prior for “people who use this argument are crackpots” is somewhat large?
How is this relevant to the example given? We cannot expect everyone to continuously gather relatively unbiased evidence on their own behaviour, can we? Indeed we cannot. Then, we should also not be extremely confident in the models of ourselves which we have constructed. If someone challenges these models, what should we do?
Most likely, the person challenging our models does not actually have good evidence and is just attempting to make some status move. This is the most common and least interesting possibility, ignoring him / breaking up with him / telling him to stop doing it …. may all be good courses of action (yes, I disagree less with the OP than you may think)
If evidence is actually put forward (which it wasn’t in the OP example, but which I hope it would be on less wrong), you can provide evidence of your own “but in the past, when X happened, I did Y, which is compatible with my self-model but not with your model of me”. Ideally, the arguers should update after the exchange of evidence. (“I observed myself for millions of minutes” does not count as evidence exchange, since the other person already knew that)
I was not arguing about the specific example given in the OP
After reading just what was presented in the anecdote, you have strong enough belief that the submitter was wrong about her own mind, and her programmer boyfriend was right, that you’ll compare her to frauds and crackpots whose ideas have vanishingly small probability.
The real problem here is what person A is actually thinking, and the invisibility of that process to themselves.
In brief, Tu quoque.
As an A, I’ll tell you what my deluded perceptions are of my internal dialogue. If I say “you’re wrong, because blah blah”, that’s because I am presuming you can handle the truth, otherwise I wouldn’t bother offering my comment, as indicated by the original poster.
person A : meh, person B can’t handle the truth, I’ll just shut up and say nothing.
That’s what you do when you think the person can’t handle the truth—you shrug and move on.
I think I’ve identified two Person A values relevant to this discussion: Expressing honest disagreement is a sign of respect. Crafting that disagreement to manage feelings is a sign of disrespect.
Two different species—those who manipulate things, and those who manipulate people. They don’t get along too well. There’s probably a third that does both, but I don’t think they’re large in number.
I think you are framing the question in order to presuppose a conclusion. This is an error that is just as endemic on LessWrong as it is everywhere else.
The first alternative is designed to look nice, respectful, and false, and the second to look nasty, disrespectful, and true. The bottom line is “Niceness is dishonesty”, and the example was invented to support it.
Compare this with an example from the original post:
This does not fall into either of those categories. It looks like this:
person A: no you’re not!
Which is what person A would say if they spoke honestly while thinking “meh, person B can’t handle the truth, I’ll just shut up and say nothing.” Person A appears to be running an internal monologue that goes: “I know the truth. You do not know the truth. I have reasons for my beliefs, therefore I am right. Therefore your reasons for your beliefs must be wrong. Therefore you should take correction from me. If you don’t, you’re even more wrong. You can’t handle the truth. I can handle the truth. Therefore I am right. (continue on auto-repeat)”
That, at least, is what I see, when I see those two alternatives.
The real problem here is what person A is actually thinking, and the invisibility of that process to themselves. For it is written:
As long as A is running that monologue, how to express themselves is going to look to them like a conflict between “niceness” and “truth”. And however they express themselves, that monologue is likely to come through to B, because it will leak out all over.
I was not arguing about the specific example given in the OP, where he (the person with whom submitter B was arguing) was apparently unable or unwilling to provide evidence for his assertion that she was mistaken about herself. You, and submitter B, may be entirely correct about the person she was arguing with.
Perhaps I am overestimating the sanity of this place, but I do hope (and expect) that if similar arguments occur on this forum, evidence will (should) be put forward. In this place dedicated, among other things, to awareness of the many failure modes of the human brain, to how you (yes you. And I, too) may be totally wrong about so many things, in this place, the hypothesis “I may be mistaken about myself; I should listen to the other person’s evidence on this matter” is not a hypothesis that should be ignored. (note how submitter B does not consider this hypothesis in her example, and indeed she may have been correct to not consider it, but as stated I’m arguing in general here).
The homeopath who has treated thousands of patients, should listen to the high-school chemistry student who has evidence that homeopathy doesn’t work. The physics crackpot who has worked on their theory of everything for decades should listen to the student of physics who points out that it fails to predict the results of an experiment. And the human, who has spent all their life as a human in a human body, should listen to the student of psychology, who may know many things about themselves that they are yet ignorant of.
Wow.
After reading just what was presented in the anecdote, you have strong enough belief that the submitter was wrong about her own mind, and her programmer boyfriend was right, that you’ll compare her to frauds and crackpots whose ideas have vanishingly small probability.
Where do you get that probability mass from?
No, no, certainly not, I made it clear that I was arguing in general and could not comment on the specific example given (come on, I say this twice in the post you quote).
Let me repeat the argument she made
This sort of argument, “I have observed this phenomenon for far longer than you did, therefore I am vastly more likely to be right about this than you are”, is very vulnerable to confirmation bias (among other biases), where the speaker will more easily remember events that fit her hypothesis than events which didn’t. This argument is a stereotypical crackpot argument, I gave two examples but I can (alas) give many more. It is virtually never a good argument. Someone who is actually sitting on top of mountains of evidence for a certain hypothesis need not resort to this argument, they can just show the evidence!
How often have I seen crackpots use this argument? Dozens of times. How often have I seen non-crackpots use it? I recall only one occasion, two if you include the OP. How often have I seen people who have actually carefully collected lots of evidence use this argument? Never. (Is my memory on this subject susceptible to confirmation bias? Ha! Yes, of course it is.). Is it any wonder then, that my prior for “people who use this argument are crackpots” is somewhat large?
How is this relevant to the example given? We cannot expect everyone to continuously gather relatively unbiased evidence on their own behaviour, can we? Indeed we cannot. Then, we should also not be extremely confident in the models of ourselves which we have constructed. If someone challenges these models, what should we do?
Most likely, the person challenging our models does not actually have good evidence and is just attempting to make some status move. This is the most common and least interesting possibility, ignoring him / breaking up with him / telling him to stop doing it …. may all be good courses of action (yes, I disagree less with the OP than you may think)
If evidence is actually put forward (which it wasn’t in the OP example, but which I hope it would be on less wrong), you can provide evidence of your own “but in the past, when X happened, I did Y, which is compatible with my self-model but not with your model of me”. Ideally, the arguers should update after the exchange of evidence. (“I observed myself for millions of minutes” does not count as evidence exchange, since the other person already knew that)
...
In brief, Tu quoque.
As an A, I’ll tell you what my deluded perceptions are of my internal dialogue. If I say “you’re wrong, because blah blah”, that’s because I am presuming you can handle the truth, otherwise I wouldn’t bother offering my comment, as indicated by the original poster.
That’s what you do when you think the person can’t handle the truth—you shrug and move on.
I think I’ve identified two Person A values relevant to this discussion:
Expressing honest disagreement is a sign of respect.
Crafting that disagreement to manage feelings is a sign of disrespect.
Two different species—those who manipulate things, and those who manipulate people. They don’t get along too well. There’s probably a third that does both, but I don’t think they’re large in number.