There isn’t an “original”. After the copying, there’s Copy A and Copy B. Both are me. I’m fine with randomly selecting whether Copy A or Copy B goes to see the movie, but it doesn’t matter, since they’re identical (until one sees the movie). In fact, there is no way to not randomly select which copy sees the movie.
From the point of view of the clone who sees the movie (say it’s bad), “suiciding” is the same as him going back in time and not seeing the movie. So I’d always stick to a prior agreement in a case like that.
If you and all your copies think that way, then you shouldn’t have to worry about them defecting in the first place, and the rule is irrelevant for you. How sure are you that that’s what you really believe, though? Sure enough to bet 1⁄2 your wealth?
I don’t really have any wealth to speak of. But they’re all me. If I won’t defect, then they won’t. The question is just whether or not we might disagree on what’s best for me. In which case, we can either go by prior agreement, or just let them all live. If the other mes really wanted to live, I’d let them. For instance, say I made 5 copies and all 5 of us went out to try different approaches to a career, agreeing the best one would survive. If a year later more than one claimed to have the best result for Blueberry, I might as well let more than one live.
ETA: However, there might be situations where I can only have one copy survive. For instance, I’m in a grad program now that I’d like to finish, and more than one of me can’t be enrolled for administrative reasons. So if I really need only one of me, I guess we could decide randomly which one would survive. I’m all right with forcing a copy to suicide if he changes his mind, since I’m making that decision for all the clones ahead of time to lead to the best outcome for Blueberry.
If one of the clones developed enough individuality to change his mind and disagree with the others, I definitely don’t see how you could consider that one anything other than an individual.
Likewise, if all of the clones decided to change their minds and go their separate ways, that would be functionally the same as you-as-a-single-person-with-a-single-body changing your mind about something, and the general rule there is that humans are allowed to do that, without being interfered with. I don’t see any reason to change that rule.
Be careful of generalizing from one example. I’m relatively certain that the vast majority of people who might consider cloning themselves wouldn’t see it the way you do, and would in fact need significant safeguards to protect the version of themselves who remembers waking up in a lab from being abused by the version of themselves who remembers going home after having their DNA sampled and their brain scanned.
I did have people like you in mind, at least peripherally, in my original suggestion, though: I’m fairly sure that the original proposal doesn’t take away any rights that you already have. (To the best of my knowledge, it is illegal for someone to force you to take a sleeping pill, even if you previously agreed to it, and my knowledge there is a bit better than average; remember that I worked at a nursing home.)
I’m relatively certain that the vast majority of people who might consider cloning themselves wouldn’t see it the way you do, and would in fact need significant safeguards to protect the version of themselves who remembers waking up in a lab from being abused by the version of themselves who remembers going home after having their DNA sampled and their brain scanned.
I’d like to hear more about this. First, I was imagining an identical atom-for-atom duplicate being constructed, in such a way that there is no fact of the matter who’s the original. As in, you press a button and there are two of you. I wasn’t thinking about an organism grown in a lab. But I’m not sure that matters, except that the lab scenario makes it easier to think of one copy being in control of the other copy.
You think the majority of people would worry about, and would need to worry about, one copy abusing the other copy? Why? The copies would have to fight for control first, which should be an even fight. And what would the point be?
I’m fairly sure that the original proposal doesn’t take away any rights that you already have. To the best of my knowledge, it is illegal for someone to force you to take a sleeping pill, even if you previously agreed to it.
Yes, that’s illegal except maybe in an emergency psychiatric situation. Here’s an idea: a time-delayed suicide pill, with no antidote, that one of the copies can take immediately after the cloning. That’s equivalent to having the agreement enforced, but it doesn’t take away any rights either. I think that addresses your concern.
I expect to get back to this; I had to take care of something for work and now I’m too tired to do it justice. If I haven’t responded to it within 18 hours, please remind me.
After conferring with Blueberry via PM, we agree that we’ll need to talk in realtime to get much further with this. Our schedules are both fairly busy right now, but we intend to try to turn the discussion into a top post. (I’d also be amenable to making the log public, or letting other people observe or participate, but I haven’t talked to Blue about that.)
There isn’t an “original”. After the copying, there’s Copy A and Copy B. Both are me. I’m fine with randomly selecting whether Copy A or Copy B goes to see the movie, but it doesn’t matter, since they’re identical (until one sees the movie). In fact, there is no way to not randomly select which copy sees the movie.
From the point of view of the clone who sees the movie (say it’s bad), “suiciding” is the same as him going back in time and not seeing the movie. So I’d always stick to a prior agreement in a case like that.
I don’t really have any wealth to speak of. But they’re all me. If I won’t defect, then they won’t. The question is just whether or not we might disagree on what’s best for me. In which case, we can either go by prior agreement, or just let them all live. If the other mes really wanted to live, I’d let them. For instance, say I made 5 copies and all 5 of us went out to try different approaches to a career, agreeing the best one would survive. If a year later more than one claimed to have the best result for Blueberry, I might as well let more than one live.
ETA: However, there might be situations where I can only have one copy survive. For instance, I’m in a grad program now that I’d like to finish, and more than one of me can’t be enrolled for administrative reasons. So if I really need only one of me, I guess we could decide randomly which one would survive. I’m all right with forcing a copy to suicide if he changes his mind, since I’m making that decision for all the clones ahead of time to lead to the best outcome for Blueberry.
Response to ETA:
If one of the clones developed enough individuality to change his mind and disagree with the others, I definitely don’t see how you could consider that one anything other than an individual.
Likewise, if all of the clones decided to change their minds and go their separate ways, that would be functionally the same as you-as-a-single-person-with-a-single-body changing your mind about something, and the general rule there is that humans are allowed to do that, without being interfered with. I don’t see any reason to change that rule.
Be careful of generalizing from one example. I’m relatively certain that the vast majority of people who might consider cloning themselves wouldn’t see it the way you do, and would in fact need significant safeguards to protect the version of themselves who remembers waking up in a lab from being abused by the version of themselves who remembers going home after having their DNA sampled and their brain scanned.
I did have people like you in mind, at least peripherally, in my original suggestion, though: I’m fairly sure that the original proposal doesn’t take away any rights that you already have. (To the best of my knowledge, it is illegal for someone to force you to take a sleeping pill, even if you previously agreed to it, and my knowledge there is a bit better than average; remember that I worked at a nursing home.)
I’d like to hear more about this. First, I was imagining an identical atom-for-atom duplicate being constructed, in such a way that there is no fact of the matter who’s the original. As in, you press a button and there are two of you. I wasn’t thinking about an organism grown in a lab. But I’m not sure that matters, except that the lab scenario makes it easier to think of one copy being in control of the other copy.
You think the majority of people would worry about, and would need to worry about, one copy abusing the other copy? Why? The copies would have to fight for control first, which should be an even fight. And what would the point be?
Yes, that’s illegal except maybe in an emergency psychiatric situation. Here’s an idea: a time-delayed suicide pill, with no antidote, that one of the copies can take immediately after the cloning. That’s equivalent to having the agreement enforced, but it doesn’t take away any rights either. I think that addresses your concern.
Next up: a game of Russian Roulette against YOURSELF!
I expect to get back to this; I had to take care of something for work and now I’m too tired to do it justice. If I haven’t responded to it within 18 hours, please remind me.
After conferring with Blueberry via PM, we agree that we’ll need to talk in realtime to get much further with this. Our schedules are both fairly busy right now, but we intend to try to turn the discussion into a top post. (I’d also be amenable to making the log public, or letting other people observe or participate, but I haven’t talked to Blue about that.)