Note that this is the best toothbrush available on the market (given my needs); there are many models that are more expensive, but they are all worse than the $10 model I bought. Let me be very clear about this: if I had spent more money, I would have gotten an inferior product—not in “value per dollar” terms, but in absolute terms.
Here’s how I would put this: I like the ISO 9000 definition of “quality” as the “degree to which a set of inherent characteristics fulfils requirements”.
When you want to find the best product for yourself, you have some requirements in mind. Suppose those requirements include criteria like “affordability” or “ease of repair” etc. Then more expensive products, while ostensibly “better” in some Platonic sense, likely aren’t a good fit for your needs, and couldn’t be described as high-quality in this sense.
That said, I agree that the microwave example, as written in the manual, would likely benefit from a revision, though I figure its current form likely does just fine in a workshop setting.
more expensive products, while ostensibly “better” in some Platonic sense
I think that I am not quite getting my meaning across… my point is that, in this case—and in many other cases—are not ‘ostensibly “better” in some Platonic sense’. They’re not better in any practical sense. They’re just worse. They are inferior products. If someone gave one to me as a gift, I would discard it, and buy the $10 toothbrush instead. If the $10 toothbrush cost $100, and the $100 toothbrushes cost $10, without changing any of their other characteristics, I would spend the extra money to get the actually better one.
My point in that quote was that while these products may be made of e.g. ostensibly better materials, they’re inferior relative to your requirements. In your framing (of products that are “just worse”, irrespective of requirements), it seems to me like one should be able to buy the $10 toothbrush, sell it for $100, outsell the originally more expensive item, and make $90 profit. As I presume that this doesn’t actually happen, I conclude that some customers prefer the product that originally costs $100, and it can ergo not be considered “just worse”.
When you judge a product as “just worse”, that sounds to me like it’s supposed to be a universally applicable and objective judgement. But it seems to me like products can only be judged subjectively (i.e. relative to one’s own requirements). For instance, if you gave a bunch of LWers the choice of which toothbrush to buy for personal use, I expect you would not be able to get unanimous agreement on your choice. So how can the other products be considered to be “just worse”?
while these products may be made of e.g. ostensibly better materials
No. They’re not. They’re really, genuinely not.
In your framing (of products that are “just worse”, irrespective of requirements), it seems to me like one should be able to buy the $10 toothbrush, sell it for $100, outsell the originally more expensive item, and make $90 profit.
And that’s the mistake you’re making. There is no good reason to believe this to be possible unless you think that purchasing decisions are driven primarily by customers’ accurate evaluations of product quality… which condition happens to be violated precisely in the case where it is commonplace to use price as a signal of quality!
I conclude that some customers prefer the product that originally costs $100
Consider the scenario where a customer prefers a product which is, in fact, inferior, given his needs. Does this scenario strike you as incoherent, as described? Or merely impossible in practice? Or neither incoherent nor impossible? If the latter, how common would you say that it is?
For instance, if you gave a bunch of LWers the choice of which toothbrush to buy for personal use, I expect you would not be able to get unanimous agreement on your choice.
Unanimous? No, of course not unanimous. There is always the “lizardman quotient”, even among LessWrongers.
More generally, whether customers’ judgments are rational given their needs and wants is, indeed, the key piece of this puzzle. People on Less Wrong are not immune to this particular bias (indeed it is my experience that “rationalists” have a huge blind spot when it comes to this topic, due, perhaps, to a greater trust in markets than that of the average person).
The expensive ones might do annoying things like beep to tell you it’s been two minutes of brushing.
Sure, they have all sorts of unnecessary features.
If they don’t take the same type of head
Indeed they do not.
The cheap one might be a better shape or weight.
Substantially so. The cheap brush I’ve got both has a better-shaped head and bristle layout than most fancy ones, and a much more ergonomically favorable body shape.
The expensive ones might be more complicated in ways that make them likely to break sooner.
Yep, for sure. The toothbrush I had lasted me for about 10 years. The fancy ones won’t.
They might have different charging methods, and you prefer to method for the cheap one.
Or the cheap one has better battery life.
A single AA battery, lasting for weeks. The fancy ones generally have rechargeable internal (non-user-serviceable) batteries with a proprietary charger—so when the battery stops holding a charge, you’re out of luck and must replace the whole thing.
(ETA: Note that the toothbrush being rechargeable means that I now must devote space in the bathroom to the charger—including the hassle of arranging for it to plug into an AC outlet—or else have to have the brush sitting in another room of the house, instead of conveniently located in the bathroom. With the AA-powered toothbrush I’ve got, it just sits near my sink, like any normal toothbrush.)
The expensive ones might have Bluetooth, which you might disprefer even apart from its effects on e.g. battery life.
Yep, this comes under the “unnecessary features” heading.
The bottom line is that the more expensive toothbrushes have, quite literally, no advantages over the cheap one (given my needs), and many disadvantages. Switching to a more expensive model would be a strict downgrade, a choice that is unambiguously dominated by sticking with the cheap one.
Here’s how I would put this: I like the ISO 9000 definition of “quality” as the “degree to which a set of inherent characteristics fulfils requirements”.
When you want to find the best product for yourself, you have some requirements in mind. Suppose those requirements include criteria like “affordability” or “ease of repair” etc. Then more expensive products, while ostensibly “better” in some Platonic sense, likely aren’t a good fit for your needs, and couldn’t be described as high-quality in this sense.
That said, I agree that the microwave example, as written in the manual, would likely benefit from a revision, though I figure its current form likely does just fine in a workshop setting.
I think that I am not quite getting my meaning across… my point is that, in this case—and in many other cases—are not ‘ostensibly “better” in some Platonic sense’. They’re not better in any practical sense. They’re just worse. They are inferior products. If someone gave one to me as a gift, I would discard it, and buy the $10 toothbrush instead. If the $10 toothbrush cost $100, and the $100 toothbrushes cost $10, without changing any of their other characteristics, I would spend the extra money to get the actually better one.
This isn’t about “affordability” at all.
My point in that quote was that while these products may be made of e.g. ostensibly better materials, they’re inferior relative to your requirements. In your framing (of products that are “just worse”, irrespective of requirements), it seems to me like one should be able to buy the $10 toothbrush, sell it for $100, outsell the originally more expensive item, and make $90 profit. As I presume that this doesn’t actually happen, I conclude that some customers prefer the product that originally costs $100, and it can ergo not be considered “just worse”.
When you judge a product as “just worse”, that sounds to me like it’s supposed to be a universally applicable and objective judgement. But it seems to me like products can only be judged subjectively (i.e. relative to one’s own requirements). For instance, if you gave a bunch of LWers the choice of which toothbrush to buy for personal use, I expect you would not be able to get unanimous agreement on your choice. So how can the other products be considered to be “just worse”?
No. They’re not. They’re really, genuinely not.
And that’s the mistake you’re making. There is no good reason to believe this to be possible unless you think that purchasing decisions are driven primarily by customers’ accurate evaluations of product quality… which condition happens to be violated precisely in the case where it is commonplace to use price as a signal of quality!
Consider the scenario where a customer prefers a product which is, in fact, inferior, given his needs. Does this scenario strike you as incoherent, as described? Or merely impossible in practice? Or neither incoherent nor impossible? If the latter, how common would you say that it is?
Unanimous? No, of course not unanimous. There is always the “lizardman quotient”, even among LessWrongers.
More generally, whether customers’ judgments are rational given their needs and wants is, indeed, the key piece of this puzzle. People on Less Wrong are not immune to this particular bias (indeed it is my experience that “rationalists” have a huge blind spot when it comes to this topic, due, perhaps, to a greater trust in markets than that of the average person).
I’m curious what it is about these toothbrushes that makes you prefer the cheap one?
Off the top of my head, a few possibilities that seem plausible to me:
If they don’t take the same type of head, the heads that fit the expensive toothbrushes might be more expensive and/or lower quality themselves.
The expensive ones might do annoying things like beep to tell you it’s been two minutes of brushing.
The cheap one might be a better shape or weight.
The expensive ones might be more complicated in ways that make them likely to break sooner.
...or in ways that make them harder to use.
They might have different charging methods, and you prefer to method for the cheap one.
Or the cheap one has better battery life.
The expensive ones might have Bluetooth, which you might disprefer even apart from its effects on e.g. battery life.
Sure, they have all sorts of unnecessary features.
Indeed they do not.
Substantially so. The cheap brush I’ve got both has a better-shaped head and bristle layout than most fancy ones, and a much more ergonomically favorable body shape.
Yep, for sure. The toothbrush I had lasted me for about 10 years. The fancy ones won’t.
A single AA battery, lasting for weeks. The fancy ones generally have rechargeable internal (non-user-serviceable) batteries with a proprietary charger—so when the battery stops holding a charge, you’re out of luck and must replace the whole thing.
(ETA: Note that the toothbrush being rechargeable means that I now must devote space in the bathroom to the charger—including the hassle of arranging for it to plug into an AC outlet—or else have to have the brush sitting in another room of the house, instead of conveniently located in the bathroom. With the AA-powered toothbrush I’ve got, it just sits near my sink, like any normal toothbrush.)
Yep, this comes under the “unnecessary features” heading.
The bottom line is that the more expensive toothbrushes have, quite literally, no advantages over the cheap one (given my needs), and many disadvantages. Switching to a more expensive model would be a strict downgrade, a choice that is unambiguously dominated by sticking with the cheap one.