You completely missed my point. … Who decides which unprofitable things are worth doing?
Unless you are arguing Communist preferences of wealth redistribution and the opportunity cost that entails where automatically representative of those of “the Russian people” because duh they had the October revolution and a civil war in which Communists won. In which case I will ask why they would not be in North Korea, and would also ask you if all regimes deciding things are representative of “the people” why do we even need this democracy thing? Obviously Ancient Egyptian peasants wanted to be involved in the unprofitable business of building Pyramids for Pharaoh.
If we are not sure the ancient Egyptian Monarchies captured people’s preferences for unprofitable activities that should be done according to the values of those indirectly funding them, if the same cannot be said of Rome, if the same cannot be said of Communism … why do you think it can be said of say the US government? Why do you think this is more efficient than having government be a money making machine that gives its citizens free money because they own stock and lets them spend it on whatever charity (which also by definition do unprofitable things) or indulgence (which often are also unprofitable—whenever I go stop to smell the flowers or go watch a movie I don’t do this to maximize my profit in currency, but to hopefully maximize my utility) they want? Or if it interferes with the operation of the state why not have the stockholders spend it in some other part of Patchland that specializes in being a great place to spend your money for good causes or fun?
And if you don’t think people’s preferences even matter when deciding what unprofitable stuff to spend resources on … well whose preferences should then?
I want unprofitable stuff that I like done too. Like helping people not having to die if they don’t want to. All else being equal I don’t however much care who does them. BTW I’m not too sure about Moldbug’s government type either, I wouldn’t volunteer to live there just based on his arguments, but I do think he does a good job of dealing with regular arguments in favour of democracy. I do think a city or patch of desert somewhere to test the form of government might be a good idea.
Who decides which unprofitable things are worth doing?
For Moldbug, the answer is . . . not you. Unless the CEO of the realm put your charity on the cleared list. But I suspect that most of the things I would want to do with my dividends would be prohibited as security risks. Political control without thought control has never happened, and I don’t think that super weapons could make it happen.
Political control without thought control has never happened, and I don’t think that super weapons could make it happen.
That is a good argument. Overall I think Moldbug does a better job of giving decent explanatory power for the modern world than providing workable solutions (if there are any) for its ills. :)
Please elaborate on how, completely disregarding political realism in favor of an overarching conspiracy theory (as already mentioned above) and just ignoring the whole iceberg of neuroscience, evolutionary psychology, etc, one can arrive at a decent explanation for it all. “The leftist social sciences professor down the street is a witch, she did it” is not up to my standards of “decent”.
“The leftist social sciences professor down the street is a witch, she did it”
That is not Moldbug’s model. How much have you read?
He has decent models in my mind for many things including the genesis of the leftwards social movement for the past few decades or centuries, the genesis of modern morality, US foreign policy, the sociological aspect development of ideology ect.
I don’t think I’m that much of a outlier in my estimation here, I’ve heard many people I know from LessWrong express interest in his thought (for example gwern, or Vladimir_M). He even had a live recorded debate with Robin Hanson back in 2010 on Futarchy (though he lost, everyone looses debates to RH ;) ). Top posters like Yvian and Eliezer also seem to have read some of Moldbug since they refer to his writing occasionally, ect. People sometimes agree and other times disagree with him, but I think they generally don’t view him as a “crank” .
I really don’t have the time right now to discuss all of this but there are a few older discussions in the comment sections of various articles (just search for “Moldbug” on the site), LessWrong that may interesting you if you’d like to learn more about his stuff and why people find it interesting.
My recent thread on one of his post also had some discussion.
He has decent models in my mind for many things including the genesis of the leftwards social movement for the past few decades or centuries, the genesis of modern morality, US foreign policy, the sociological aspect development of ideology ect.
I have read all of that, at first glance expecting a fun and intriguing contrarian ride. It came across as considerably more insane (in the LW/OB sense) and less grounded in reality than the milder forms of ol’ good fascism to me.
I generally don’t see what’s so insane about WASP Blue State Protestant progressivism being the sociological, philosophical and cultural predecessor of WASP Blue State progressivism.
Or say that modern ethics aren’t the product of pure reason and moral progress but a clear descendant of older Western morality.
Or that US foreign policy is often crazy and mixed up because the US isn’t a monolithic entity and that more specifically the interests of the State department and the Pentagon diverge.
Or that in a modern parlimentary democracy power is wielded by opinion makers (academia and journalists) who create the intellectual fashion of the rich and well positioned subscribe to and with a twenty or so year lag the general population (they adopt it not just to copy the elites but because legislation and education are updated to push new beliefs on them) which then vote for representatives that are supposed to keep the unelected elites in check and working for their interests. Culturally any ethical ideas or value sets adopted by elite academia are assured long term victory.
I think that covers my examples.
I have read all of that, at first glance expecting a fun and intriguing contrarian ride. It came across as considerably more insane (in the LW/OB sense) and less grounded in reality than the milder forms of ol’ good fascism to me.
Meh, fascists are often too mystical for my tastes (try reading Julius Evola. Religious Paleocons are a bit better but their axioms are all messed up, believing in God and all that. The few irreligious ones are often lots of fun.
I repeat myself:
Unless you are arguing Communist preferences of wealth redistribution and the opportunity cost that entails where automatically representative of those of “the Russian people” because duh they had the October revolution and a civil war in which Communists won. In which case I will ask why they would not be in North Korea, and would also ask you if all regimes deciding things are representative of “the people” why do we even need this democracy thing? Obviously Ancient Egyptian peasants wanted to be involved in the unprofitable business of building Pyramids for Pharaoh.
If we are not sure the ancient Egyptian Monarchies captured people’s preferences for unprofitable activities that should be done according to the values of those indirectly funding them, if the same cannot be said of Rome, if the same cannot be said of Communism … why do you think it can be said of say the US government? Why do you think this is more efficient than having government be a money making machine that gives its citizens free money because they own stock and lets them spend it on whatever charity (which also by definition do unprofitable things) or indulgence (which often are also unprofitable—whenever I go stop to smell the flowers or go watch a movie I don’t do this to maximize my profit in currency, but to hopefully maximize my utility) they want? Or if it interferes with the operation of the state why not have the stockholders spend it in some other part of Patchland that specializes in being a great place to spend your money for good causes or fun?
And if you don’t think people’s preferences even matter when deciding what unprofitable stuff to spend resources on … well whose preferences should then?
I want unprofitable stuff that I like done too. Like helping people not having to die if they don’t want to. All else being equal I don’t however much care who does them. BTW I’m not too sure about Moldbug’s government type either, I wouldn’t volunteer to live there just based on his arguments, but I do think he does a good job of dealing with regular arguments in favour of democracy. I do think a city or patch of desert somewhere to test the form of government might be a good idea.
For Moldbug, the answer is . . . not you. Unless the CEO of the realm put your charity on the cleared list. But I suspect that most of the things I would want to do with my dividends would be prohibited as security risks. Political control without thought control has never happened, and I don’t think that super weapons could make it happen.
I’m interested in your answer.
That is a good argument. Overall I think Moldbug does a better job of giving decent explanatory power for the modern world than providing workable solutions (if there are any) for its ills. :)
Please elaborate on how, completely disregarding political realism in favor of an overarching conspiracy theory (as already mentioned above) and just ignoring the whole iceberg of neuroscience, evolutionary psychology, etc, one can arrive at a decent explanation for it all. “The leftist social sciences professor down the street is a witch, she did it” is not up to my standards of “decent”.
That is not Moldbug’s model. How much have you read?
He has decent models in my mind for many things including the genesis of the leftwards social movement for the past few decades or centuries, the genesis of modern morality, US foreign policy, the sociological aspect development of ideology ect.
I don’t think I’m that much of a outlier in my estimation here, I’ve heard many people I know from LessWrong express interest in his thought (for example gwern, or Vladimir_M). He even had a live recorded debate with Robin Hanson back in 2010 on Futarchy (though he lost, everyone looses debates to RH ;) ). Top posters like Yvian and Eliezer also seem to have read some of Moldbug since they refer to his writing occasionally, ect. People sometimes agree and other times disagree with him, but I think they generally don’t view him as a “crank” .
I really don’t have the time right now to discuss all of this but there are a few older discussions in the comment sections of various articles (just search for “Moldbug” on the site), LessWrong that may interesting you if you’d like to learn more about his stuff and why people find it interesting.
My recent thread on one of his post also had some discussion.
I have read all of that, at first glance expecting a fun and intriguing contrarian ride. It came across as considerably more insane (in the LW/OB sense) and less grounded in reality than the milder forms of ol’ good fascism to me.
I generally don’t see what’s so insane about WASP Blue State Protestant progressivism being the sociological, philosophical and cultural predecessor of WASP Blue State progressivism.
Or say that modern ethics aren’t the product of pure reason and moral progress but a clear descendant of older Western morality.
Or that US foreign policy is often crazy and mixed up because the US isn’t a monolithic entity and that more specifically the interests of the State department and the Pentagon diverge.
Or that in a modern parlimentary democracy power is wielded by opinion makers (academia and journalists) who create the intellectual fashion of the rich and well positioned subscribe to and with a twenty or so year lag the general population (they adopt it not just to copy the elites but because legislation and education are updated to push new beliefs on them) which then vote for representatives that are supposed to keep the unelected elites in check and working for their interests. Culturally any ethical ideas or value sets adopted by elite academia are assured long term victory.
I think that covers my examples.
Meh, fascists are often too mystical for my tastes (try reading Julius Evola. Religious Paleocons are a bit better but their axioms are all messed up, believing in God and all that. The few irreligious ones are often lots of fun.