I refuse to conform to people’s expectations of a wise sage who always speaks with kindness and sober deliberation, of which I have said: “I am not bloody Gandalf.”
I’m far from convinced that niceness correlates with status (or stupidity). For every Gandalf, there is a Stalin.
In fact, wait a minute! Gandalf is a fictional character. And indeed, though history is full of Stalins, I’m actually having trouble thinking of very many real-life Gandalfs. There are of course plenty of legends about wise, kind rulers; but it seems that very few actual historical (as opposed to fictional) high-status people have had this “Gandalf” disposition you speak of.
I think I must have been unclear on this point. What I am rejecting is conformity to an image that exists in other people’s minds; I am refusing to behave in accordance with the stereotyped expectations of people who do assign me high status. So Gandalf, in fact, is an appropriate illustration, because if status-seeking makes you behave like the Tolkien character that people expect you to be, that could also make you stupid. (Similarly if you behave like Frodo, i.e., never noticing the fact that you’re a hero.)
I am far from convinced that Stalin is “high-status”—at the very least most socialists I know disavow him.
On the other hand I agree that Gandalf is a fictional character. A couple of counterexamples quickly came to mind then failed, I’d be interested to see a larger list:
Gandhi: disowned his son for getting married who then committed suicide; told women not to fight against rape.
I’m not thinking of a good one for Lincoln, Einstein, MLKJ. Any evidence against them? I’d be surprised to see it about Einstein.
ETA: Clearly Stalin was high status when leading the USSR, and perhaps continues to be, I seem to have slipped into non-LW-mode for that sentence. My question of whether other, commonly-though-of-as-kinder public figures are less gandalf-like still stands.
Status is not the same as popularity. Besides, it’s just an ape thing—you don’t have to intrinsically value it, and so feel bad about acknowledging the high status of someone you don’t like.
I am far from convinced that Stalin is “high-status”
Stalin is definitely high-status, at least in present-day Russia. He’s alarmingly popular among lower-class older people here—and perhaps among the net-savvy public too, as he is believed to be the actual winner of the state-sponsored contest “The Name of Russia”. If you ask me, that’s not surprising at all given the current situation in the country—it’s crawling with corruption.
Lincoln illegally suspended habeas corpus and the freedom of speech, shut down newspapers that disagreed with him, and arrested legitimately elected members of the Maryland General Assembly on suspicion of supporting the South. Many argue that these were necessary measures, but Lincoln doesn’t have a spotless record by any means.
I’m far from convinced that niceness correlates with status (or stupidity). For every Gandalf, there is a Stalin.
In fact, wait a minute! Gandalf is a fictional character. And indeed, though history is full of Stalins, I’m actually having trouble thinking of very many real-life Gandalfs. There are of course plenty of legends about wise, kind rulers; but it seems that very few actual historical (as opposed to fictional) high-status people have had this “Gandalf” disposition you speak of.
So really, is this your true rejection of niceness?
I think I must have been unclear on this point. What I am rejecting is conformity to an image that exists in other people’s minds; I am refusing to behave in accordance with the stereotyped expectations of people who do assign me high status. So Gandalf, in fact, is an appropriate illustration, because if status-seeking makes you behave like the Tolkien character that people expect you to be, that could also make you stupid. (Similarly if you behave like Frodo, i.e., never noticing the fact that you’re a hero.)
Isn’t Sam the hero?
I shan’t deny that Sam is a hero, though his unawareness of the fact is three times worse than Frodo’s.
Perhaps replace ‘kindness and sober deliberation’ with ‘dignity and sober deliberation’.
I am far from convinced that Stalin is “high-status”—at the very least most socialists I know disavow him.
On the other hand I agree that Gandalf is a fictional character. A couple of counterexamples quickly came to mind then failed, I’d be interested to see a larger list:
Gandhi: disowned his son for getting married who then committed suicide; told women not to fight against rape.
I’m not thinking of a good one for Lincoln, Einstein, MLKJ. Any evidence against them? I’d be surprised to see it about Einstein.
ETA: Clearly Stalin was high status when leading the USSR, and perhaps continues to be, I seem to have slipped into non-LW-mode for that sentence. My question of whether other, commonly-though-of-as-kinder public figures are less gandalf-like still stands.
That may be true now, but Stalin was pretty high status while he was in charge of the USSR.
EDIT: Comment rescinded due to being dumb.
Status is not the same as popularity. Besides, it’s just an ape thing—you don’t have to intrinsically value it, and so feel bad about acknowledging the high status of someone you don’t like.
Stalin is definitely high-status, at least in present-day Russia. He’s alarmingly popular among lower-class older people here—and perhaps among the net-savvy public too, as he is believed to be the actual winner of the state-sponsored contest “The Name of Russia”. If you ask me, that’s not surprising at all given the current situation in the country—it’s crawling with corruption.
Lincoln illegally suspended habeas corpus and the freedom of speech, shut down newspapers that disagreed with him, and arrested legitimately elected members of the Maryland General Assembly on suspicion of supporting the South. Many argue that these were necessary measures, but Lincoln doesn’t have a spotless record by any means.
I didn’t mean to say he did, I just didn’t have the list on hand myself.
I wasn’t trying to contradict you, just supplying the evidence you requested.
Sorry, I got defensive because other posts of mine were getting downvoted (justifiably).