It makes me sad to keep reading this kind of history propaganda.
Ancient Israelite monotheism substantially predates Christianity, contrary to the narrative in this post. The story of Elijah and the priests of Baal (in which a public experiment is used to falsify one of two mutually exclusive models, implying consistency as the first criterion for truth and correspondence with evidence as the second) was written, at the latest, several centuries before the time in which the Jesus story is set.
Aristotle used empirical evidence to inform his models, believed in determining which model was true by looking when possible (e.g. he thought you could tell that the Earth is globular because of the shadow it casts on the moon), and did extensive fieldwork in biology.
I have seen a lot of these generalized disclaimers. They don’t mean much. What is more important is the hard work of closely examining every assumption and every logical step.
It reminds me somehow of the way many Christians talk a lot about humility but in practice are extremely arrogant towards non-believers. I am not specifically thinking of you in this paragraph.
Aristotle used empirical evidence to inform his models
Aristotle claimed heavy objects fell to the ground because they loved the noble positions and wanted to be close to it. He also said that heavy objects would fall faster.
The story of Elijah and the priests of Baal (in which a public experiment is used to falsify one of two mutually exclusive models, implying consistency as the first criterion for truth and correspondence with evidence as the second)
Are you claiming that the God of Elijah is different to Christ?
Aristotle claimed heavy objects fell to the ground because they loved the noble positions and wanted to be close to it. He also said that heavy objects would fall faster.
This doesn’t really sound like Aristotle to me, I suspect it sounds a bit different in context—do you remember where he says this?
In Physica—I have missed a part there which I apologise for. Only objects which are made of earth fall toward the noble position of earth—as is their want to be with their own in their own noble position. Things made of air will seek out the heavens (which is why smoke rises), things made of water will seek out water (which is why rivers flow into the sea), and things made of fire will seek out fire. For Aristotle, heavy objects contained more of the element earth—so naturally they moved quickest to reach their natural position.
Why doesn’t this seem to you like a model grounded in empirical evidence?
Aristotle never tested it—never even wrote of the possibility of testing the model. Post-hoc reasoning is not science. It’s inventing plausible (to the time) sounding explanations for observations, and then just leaving it at that.
Which is why Aristotle (or any Aristotlean naturalist) never climbed up a cliff and dropped two balls—one made of lead the other of wood.
For a little over one thousand years before someone had come into this world who changed our understanding of it forever. Instead of an irrational universe created and ruled over by fickle and oft-competing gods—where mathematics that held true in Egypt had no reason to be true in Greece—this person had said that not only was the universe created by rational laws but that he was rationality himself.
Can you explain how the story of Elijah widely changed the entire philosophical culture of the world into which it occurred, resulting in an evidence and testing based approach to natural philosophy?
If my memory serves—and I admit it may not, and I have not looked this up, the Israelites returned to the worship of Baal and the Canaanite gods soon thereafter.
I’m not saying that the story of Elijah effected that change on its own. I’m citing it as evidence against the claim that Jesus caused an unique transition from a world with no such tradition to a world dominated by it. Instead, there were long-established monist narratives, some of which grew in influence over time, some of which (including the one that recorded the Elijah story) strongly influenced the development of Christianity.
I’ve been careful to refer to the time of the recording of the Elijah story (most likely around the reign of king Josiah) rather than the time it is supposed to have occurred, since there’s clearer evidence for the former, so it’s not very helpful to respond as though I meant the latter.
It makes me sad to keep reading this kind of history propaganda.
Ancient Israelite monotheism substantially predates Christianity, contrary to the narrative in this post. The story of Elijah and the priests of Baal (in which a public experiment is used to falsify one of two mutually exclusive models, implying consistency as the first criterion for truth and correspondence with evidence as the second) was written, at the latest, several centuries before the time in which the Jesus story is set.
Aristotle used empirical evidence to inform his models, believed in determining which model was true by looking when possible (e.g. he thought you could tell that the Earth is globular because of the shadow it casts on the moon), and did extensive fieldwork in biology.
Motivated reasoning is so obvious and blatant when it concerns beliefs we don’t share ourselves. The OP is almost embarrassing.
Our own motivated reasoning is harder to notice. That is the hard thing.
Isn’t it just. If only the OP had prefaced everything with some kind of comment acknowledging that.
I have seen a lot of these generalized disclaimers. They don’t mean much. What is more important is the hard work of closely examining every assumption and every logical step.
It reminds me somehow of the way many Christians talk a lot about humility but in practice are extremely arrogant towards non-believers. I am not specifically thinking of you in this paragraph.
I agree. This was merely an introduction.
I would assign a fairly high probability that this is more annoying to me than to you.
Aristotle claimed heavy objects fell to the ground because they loved the noble positions and wanted to be close to it. He also said that heavy objects would fall faster.
Are you claiming that the God of Elijah is different to Christ?
This doesn’t really sound like Aristotle to me, I suspect it sounds a bit different in context—do you remember where he says this?
In Physica—I have missed a part there which I apologise for. Only objects which are made of earth fall toward the noble position of earth—as is their want to be with their own in their own noble position. Things made of air will seek out the heavens (which is why smoke rises), things made of water will seek out water (which is why rivers flow into the sea), and things made of fire will seek out fire. For Aristotle, heavy objects contained more of the element earth—so naturally they moved quickest to reach their natural position.
It’s from his argument of natural motions.
Why doesn’t this seem to you like a model grounded in empirical evidence?
Aristotle never tested it—never even wrote of the possibility of testing the model. Post-hoc reasoning is not science. It’s inventing plausible (to the time) sounding explanations for observations, and then just leaving it at that.
Which is why Aristotle (or any Aristotlean naturalist) never climbed up a cliff and dropped two balls—one made of lead the other of wood.
I was responding to:
The story of Elijah predates this.
Can you explain how the story of Elijah widely changed the entire philosophical culture of the world into which it occurred, resulting in an evidence and testing based approach to natural philosophy?
If my memory serves—and I admit it may not, and I have not looked this up, the Israelites returned to the worship of Baal and the Canaanite gods soon thereafter.
I’m not saying that the story of Elijah effected that change on its own. I’m citing it as evidence against the claim that Jesus caused an unique transition from a world with no such tradition to a world dominated by it. Instead, there were long-established monist narratives, some of which grew in influence over time, some of which (including the one that recorded the Elijah story) strongly influenced the development of Christianity.
I’ve been careful to refer to the time of the recording of the Elijah story (most likely around the reign of king Josiah) rather than the time it is supposed to have occurred, since there’s clearer evidence for the former, so it’s not very helpful to respond as though I meant the latter.