Sure. Let’s compare it to the alternative the morality is partially biologically hardwired and partially culturally determined. By comparison the idea that “history decides what’s morally right” is silly.
Marx basically had the idea that you don’t need God for an absolute moral system when you can pin it all on history
Yep, he had this idea. That doesn’t make it a right idea. Marx had lots of ideas which didn’t turn out well.
You observe how history moves. Then you extrapolate. You look at the limit of that function and that limit is the perfect morality.
Oh, so—keeping in mind we’re on LW—the universe tiled with paperclips might turn out to be the perfect morality? X-D
And remind me, how well does extrapolation of history work?
In the US where Marx didn’t have much influence as in Europe there are still a bunch of people who believe in young earth creationism.
Do you, by any chance, believe there is a causal connection between these two observations that you jammed into a single sentence?
Yep, he had this idea. That doesn’t make it a right idea.
We didn’t talk about right or wrong but silly.
Let’s compare it to the alternative the morality is partially biologically hardwired and partially culturally determined.
Let’s do what partially biologically hardwired and partially culturally determined is not exactly the battle cry under which you can unite people and get them to adopt a new moral framework. It also has the problem of not telling people who want to know what they should do what they should do.
Do you, by any chance, believe there is a causal connection between these two observations that you jammed into a single sentence?
Yes, I do think that Marxism and Socialism has a lot to do with spreading atheism in Europe. Socialist governments did make a greater effort to push back religion and make people atheists than democratic governments did.
If I hear Dawkins talk how it’s important that atheists self identify as being atheists to show the rest of America that one can be an atheist and still a morally good person, than that does indicate to me a problem of American culture that’s largely solved in Europe. Socialist activism has a lot to do with why that’s the case.
Thanks. The fact that I made that error is pretty interesting to me. Someone else used the Dawkings spelling a few days ago on LW. I felt that it was wrong and looked up the correct spelling to try to be sure.
Somehow my brain still updated in the background from Dawkins to Dawkings.
Oh yes, they certainly did. I take it, you approve of these efforts?
That question indicates being mindkilled.
I happen to be able to discuss issues like that without treating arguments as soldiers.
Discussing cause and effects is hard enough as it is without involving notions of approval or disapproval.
The implication that somehow socialism isn’t responsible for spreading atheism in Europe because socialist used some immoral technique is a conflation of moral beliefs with beliefs about reality.
It seems to me that you two are talking past each other. Here’s what I hear:
ChristianKI: “Socialist movements and governments did successfully promote atheism and materialism in the populations of Europe. This is why Europeans do not tend to believe, as Americans do, that atheists are incapable of being moral.” (This is a descriptive claim about history and public opinion.)
Lumifer: “We should not advocate socialism as a way of promoting atheism and materialism, because socialism is awful and Marxist ideas of historical progress are silly.” (This is a normative claim about advocacy.)
The implication that somehow socialism isn’t responsible for spreading atheism in Europe because socialist used some immoral technique is a conflation of moral beliefs with beliefs about reality.
I haven’t said anything about morals. In particular, I haven’t labeled any actions as immoral. I just inquired whether you approved of the efforts that the socialist governments have made in reality in the XX century to spread atheism.
Moreover, we are already past the question of whether the socialist governments made “a greater effort to push back religion and make people atheists”—we know they did—the issue now is the cost-benefit analysis of these efforts. You clearly like the outcome, so do you think the price was worth it? This is what I mean by the question about whether you approve.
I’m heavily opposed to what currently happens in France when it comes to fighting religion.
But I guess both claims won’t tell the average person here where much because the political background of European politics isn’t that clear in English speaking forum.
The question wasn’t which political system you approve.
The question was whether you think the outcome of more atheists in Europe was worth the cost incurred during the efforts of the socialist governments to suppress religion and promote atheism.
I’m living in a country in which the people who want socialism who had the most political power favor democratic socialism over communism.
In Germany you had a split in the left. One half thought that you need a revolution to achieve the goal of socialism and the other half thought that you can work within the democratic institutions to achieve the goal of socialism.
I haven’t meet any young earth creationists in Berlin or for that matter people who doubt the theory of evolution so I’m completely happen with the state of affairs where I live. No catholics bombing protestants either.
On the other hand I don’t approve of the kind of policies that exist in France or Soviet Russia.
I’m not familiar enough with Swedish policies to tell you whether I approve of them.
This is a bit of a sideline, but if you’re talking about the Troubles in Northern Ireland, I think modeling it as a religious conflict is the wrong way to go. The impression I get is more of religion as a shibboleth for cultural and political ties than the other way around.
There advocated way of getting there wasn’t the “way through the institutions” but “revolution”. There are Marxist arguments that revolution is the only way and that it’s not possible to change the system from the inside.
According to our university constitution students are supposed to vote in an election for a 5 person group to represent the body of students of a university department. At our university the students of the political science department don’t like this.
The elected 5-person body doesn’t constitute itself and the decisions are rather supposed to make by a self governed open body in which everyone who wants can speak and that makes decisions via “consensus”.
I don’t see myself in that tradition or have any loyalty to that fraction. As far as current affairs go, I would want liquid democracy for those student institutions with some elected persons taken representative roles and not “consensus” style democracy.
If I hear Dawkings talk how it’s important that atheists self identify as being atheists to show the rest of America that one can be an atheist and still a morally good person, than that does indicate to me a problem of American culture that’s largely solved in Europe. Socialist activism has a lot to do with why that’s the case.
Because Socialists are so well-known for their morality. Seriously, in the US Socialists and Marxists are the standard examples of how atheism causes people to lose their morals.
I cannot interpret that comment, because I cannot understand how you are using “socialism” or “morality.
Or how ironic you’re being.
Where I come from, the term “Christian Socialist” can be taken with a straight face.
Sure. Let’s compare it to the alternative the morality is partially biologically hardwired and partially culturally determined. By comparison the idea that “history decides what’s morally right” is silly.
Yep, he had this idea. That doesn’t make it a right idea. Marx had lots of ideas which didn’t turn out well.
Oh, so—keeping in mind we’re on LW—the universe tiled with paperclips might turn out to be the perfect morality? X-D
And remind me, how well does extrapolation of history work?
Do you, by any chance, believe there is a causal connection between these two observations that you jammed into a single sentence?
Since culture evolves with history there is a lot of overlap between culture determining moralty and history determining morality.
What’s the overlap between two empty sets?
There’s no culture and no history?
Oh yes, there is culture, and there is history, and there is an overlap.
Now work out what two sets I am implying are empty.
OK. You’re one if the people who think that morality is arbitrary because your training did not equip you to think about it as non arbitrary.
We didn’t talk about right or wrong but silly.
Let’s do what partially biologically hardwired and partially culturally determined is not exactly the battle cry under which you can unite people and get them to adopt a new moral framework. It also has the problem of not telling people who want to know what they should do what they should do.
Yes, I do think that Marxism and Socialism has a lot to do with spreading atheism in Europe. Socialist governments did make a greater effort to push back religion and make people atheists than democratic governments did.
If I hear Dawkins talk how it’s important that atheists self identify as being atheists to show the rest of America that one can be an atheist and still a morally good person, than that does indicate to me a problem of American culture that’s largely solved in Europe. Socialist activism has a lot to do with why that’s the case.
Dawkings → Dawkins
Thanks. The fact that I made that error is pretty interesting to me. Someone else used the Dawkings spelling a few days ago on LW. I felt that it was wrong and looked up the correct spelling to try to be sure.
Somehow my brain still updated in the background from Dawkins to Dawkings.
Promoting a century-and-a-half-old wrong idea looks pretty silly to me. You want to revive phlogiston, too, maybe?
That’s a good thing. I am highly suspicious of ideologies which want people to adopt new moral frameworks, especially if it involves battle cries.
That’s a feature, not a bug.
Oh yes, they certainly did. I take it, you approve of these efforts?
That question indicates being mindkilled. I happen to be able to discuss issues like that without treating arguments as soldiers.
Discussing cause and effects is hard enough as it is without involving notions of approval or disapproval.
The implication that somehow socialism isn’t responsible for spreading atheism in Europe because socialist used some immoral technique is a conflation of moral beliefs with beliefs about reality.
It seems to me that you two are talking past each other. Here’s what I hear:
ChristianKI: “Socialist movements and governments did successfully promote atheism and materialism in the populations of Europe. This is why Europeans do not tend to believe, as Americans do, that atheists are incapable of being moral.” (This is a descriptive claim about history and public opinion.)
Lumifer: “We should not advocate socialism as a way of promoting atheism and materialism, because socialism is awful and Marxist ideas of historical progress are silly.” (This is a normative claim about advocacy.)
You’re using “socialism” vaguely. Iron curtain socialism was awful. North-western European social democracy is not.
What do we get if we Taboo socialism?
Detail
I haven’t said anything about morals. In particular, I haven’t labeled any actions as immoral. I just inquired whether you approved of the efforts that the socialist governments have made in reality in the XX century to spread atheism.
Moreover, we are already past the question of whether the socialist governments made “a greater effort to push back religion and make people atheists”—we know they did—the issue now is the cost-benefit analysis of these efforts. You clearly like the outcome, so do you think the price was worth it? This is what I mean by the question about whether you approve.
I do approve of democratic socialism.
I’m heavily opposed to what currently happens in France when it comes to fighting religion.
But I guess both claims won’t tell the average person here where much because the political background of European politics isn’t that clear in English speaking forum.
The question wasn’t which political system you approve.
The question was whether you think the outcome of more atheists in Europe was worth the cost incurred during the efforts of the socialist governments to suppress religion and promote atheism.
I’m living in a country in which the people who want socialism who had the most political power favor democratic socialism over communism.
In Germany you had a split in the left. One half thought that you need a revolution to achieve the goal of socialism and the other half thought that you can work within the democratic institutions to achieve the goal of socialism.
I haven’t meet any young earth creationists in Berlin or for that matter people who doubt the theory of evolution so I’m completely happen with the state of affairs where I live. No catholics bombing protestants either.
On the other hand I don’t approve of the kind of policies that exist in France or Soviet Russia. I’m not familiar enough with Swedish policies to tell you whether I approve of them.
This is a bit of a sideline, but if you’re talking about the Troubles in Northern Ireland, I think modeling it as a religious conflict is the wrong way to go. The impression I get is more of religion as a shibboleth for cultural and political ties than the other way around.
Lucky you X-D
Right. Instead you had the Baader-Meinhof gang. They wanted socialism, too, didn’t they?
There advocated way of getting there wasn’t the “way through the institutions” but “revolution”. There are Marxist arguments that revolution is the only way and that it’s not possible to change the system from the inside.
According to our university constitution students are supposed to vote in an election for a 5 person group to represent the body of students of a university department. At our university the students of the political science department don’t like this.
The elected 5-person body doesn’t constitute itself and the decisions are rather supposed to make by a self governed open body in which everyone who wants can speak and that makes decisions via “consensus”.
I don’t see myself in that tradition or have any loyalty to that fraction. As far as current affairs go, I would want liquid democracy for those student institutions with some elected persons taken representative roles and not “consensus” style democracy.
Because Socialists are so well-known for their morality. Seriously, in the US Socialists and Marxists are the standard examples of how atheism causes people to lose their morals.
I cannot interpret that comment, because I cannot understand how you are using “socialism” or “morality. Or how ironic you’re being. Where I come from, the term “Christian Socialist” can be taken with a straight face.