Thanks for this wall of text but you didn’t even try to answer my question. I asked for justification to this division of values—you just explained to me this division.
If you are able to get the analogy, my argument sounds like this:
“The author has tried hard to tie various component of personal development into three universal principles that can be applied to any situation. Unfortunately human personality is a much more nuanced thing that defies such neat categorizations. The attempt to force fit the ‘fundamental principles of personal development(!)’ into neat categories can only result in such inanities as love + truth = oneness; truth + power = courage; etc. There is no explanation on why only these categories are considered universal, why not others? After all we have a long list of desirable qualities say virtue, honor, commitment, persistence, discipline etc. etc. On what basis do you pick 3 of them and declare them to be ‘fundamental principles’? If truth, love and power are the fundamental principals of personality, then what about the others?
...
The point is that there is no scientific basis for claiming that truth, power and love are the basic three principles and others are just a combination of them. There are no hypothesis, no tests, no analysis and no proofs. No reference to any studies in any university of repute. No double blind tests on sample population. Just results. Whatever author says is a revelation that does not require any external validation. His assertion is enough since it is based on his personal experience. Believe it and you will see the results.”
Btw, It’s still extremely interesting to me, how exactly does “terminality” of value give sense to action that has no reasons to be done.
Why do anything? It’s not enough to have an infinite or circular chain of reasoning. You can construct an infinite or circular chain of reasoning that supports any conclusion. You have to have an ending to it. That is what we call a terminal value.
There is no explanation on why only these categories are considered universal, why not others?
Nobody said it has to be simple. Our values are complicated. Love, truth, oneness, power, courage, etc. are all terminal values. Some of them are also instrumental values. Power is very useful in fulfilling other values, and you will put forth more effort to achieve power than you would if it was just a terminal value. There are also instrumental values that are not terminal values, such as going to the store (assuming you don’t particularly like the store, although even then you could argue that it’s the happiness you like).
I don’t know why. The most plausible answer I know—because you like doing it.
Okay. However there are only assertions and no justifications, let’s assume that your first paragraph is right. Anyway, how does “terminality” of value give sense to otherwise senseless action?
I ask you why these two categories, and it looks like you even cite the right piece out of my review-argument and… Bam! “Nobody said it has to be simple”.
But, why? Why these two categories of values? Where is justification? Or is it just “too basic to be explained”? If you think so, write it, please.
Anyway, how does “terminality” of value give sense to otherwise senseless action?
What gives value to an otherwise senseless action is a meta-ethical question. “Terminality” is just what you call it when you value something for reasons other than it causing something else that you value.
Why these two categories of values?
Let me try making an example:
Suppose you’re a paperclip-maximizer. You value paperclips. Paperclip factories help build paperclips, so factories are good too. Given a choice between building a factory immediately and a paperclip immediately, you’d probably pick the former. It’s like you value factories more than paperclips.
But if you’re given the opportunity to build a factory-maximizer, you’d turn it down. Those factories potentially could make a lot of paperclips, but they won’t, because the factory-maximizer would need that metal to make more factories. You don’t really value factories. They’re just useful. You value paperclips.
You could come up with an exception like this for any instrumental value. No matter how much the instrumental value is maximized, you won’t care unless it helps with the terminal value. There is no such exception for you terminal values. If there’s more paperclips, it’s better. End of story.
The actual utility function can be quite complicated. Perhaps you prefer paperclips in a certain size range. Perhaps you want them to be easily bent, and hard to break. In that case, your terminal value is more sophisticated than “paperclips”, but it’s something.
If there is reason ‘what for’ (What for did you buy this car? To drive to work) do something, then it’s instrumental value. If there is only reason ‘why’ (Why did you buy this car? Because I like it) do something, then it’s a terminal value. Right?
I don’t know the difference between “what for” and “why”.
If you bought the car to drive to work, it’s instrumental. If you bought it because having nice cars makes you happy, its instrumental. If you bought it because you just prefer for future you to have a car, whether or not he’s happy about it or even wants a car, then it’s terminal.
As for why: you can answer to “why” with either “because” or “to” but you can only answer to “what for” with “to”. To ‘avoid’ confusion I prefer to use “why” when I want to get “because” and “what for” when I want to get “to”, e.g.
Why did you buy this car? Because I like it. What for did you buy this car? To drive to work
Thanks for this wall of text but you didn’t even try to answer my question. I asked for justification to this division of values—you just explained to me this division.
If you are able to get the analogy, my argument sounds like this:
“The author has tried hard to tie various component of personal development into three universal principles that can be applied to any situation. Unfortunately human personality is a much more nuanced thing that defies such neat categorizations. The attempt to force fit the ‘fundamental principles of personal development(!)’ into neat categories can only result in such inanities as love + truth = oneness; truth + power = courage; etc. There is no explanation on why only these categories are considered universal, why not others? After all we have a long list of desirable qualities say virtue, honor, commitment, persistence, discipline etc. etc. On what basis do you pick 3 of them and declare them to be ‘fundamental principles’? If truth, love and power are the fundamental principals of personality, then what about the others?
...
The point is that there is no scientific basis for claiming that truth, power and love are the basic three principles and others are just a combination of them. There are no hypothesis, no tests, no analysis and no proofs. No reference to any studies in any university of repute. No double blind tests on sample population. Just results. Whatever author says is a revelation that does not require any external validation. His assertion is enough since it is based on his personal experience. Believe it and you will see the results.”
Btw, It’s still extremely interesting to me, how exactly does “terminality” of value give sense to action that has no reasons to be done.
Why do anything? It’s not enough to have an infinite or circular chain of reasoning. You can construct an infinite or circular chain of reasoning that supports any conclusion. You have to have an ending to it. That is what we call a terminal value.
Nobody said it has to be simple. Our values are complicated. Love, truth, oneness, power, courage, etc. are all terminal values. Some of them are also instrumental values. Power is very useful in fulfilling other values, and you will put forth more effort to achieve power than you would if it was just a terminal value. There are also instrumental values that are not terminal values, such as going to the store (assuming you don’t particularly like the store, although even then you could argue that it’s the happiness you like).
I don’t know why. The most plausible answer I know—because you like doing it.
Okay. However there are only assertions and no justifications, let’s assume that your first paragraph is right. Anyway, how does “terminality” of value give sense to otherwise senseless action?
I ask you why these two categories, and it looks like you even cite the right piece out of my review-argument and… Bam! “Nobody said it has to be simple”.
But, why? Why these two categories of values? Where is justification? Or is it just “too basic to be explained”? If you think so, write it, please.
What gives value to an otherwise senseless action is a meta-ethical question. “Terminality” is just what you call it when you value something for reasons other than it causing something else that you value.
Let me try making an example:
Suppose you’re a paperclip-maximizer. You value paperclips. Paperclip factories help build paperclips, so factories are good too. Given a choice between building a factory immediately and a paperclip immediately, you’d probably pick the former. It’s like you value factories more than paperclips.
But if you’re given the opportunity to build a factory-maximizer, you’d turn it down. Those factories potentially could make a lot of paperclips, but they won’t, because the factory-maximizer would need that metal to make more factories. You don’t really value factories. They’re just useful. You value paperclips.
You could come up with an exception like this for any instrumental value. No matter how much the instrumental value is maximized, you won’t care unless it helps with the terminal value. There is no such exception for you terminal values. If there’s more paperclips, it’s better. End of story.
The actual utility function can be quite complicated. Perhaps you prefer paperclips in a certain size range. Perhaps you want them to be easily bent, and hard to break. In that case, your terminal value is more sophisticated than “paperclips”, but it’s something.
Sorry for the pause. Have been thinking.
If there is reason ‘what for’ (What for did you buy this car? To drive to work) do something, then it’s instrumental value. If there is only reason ‘why’ (Why did you buy this car? Because I like it) do something, then it’s a terminal value. Right?
I don’t know the difference between “what for” and “why”.
If you bought the car to drive to work, it’s instrumental. If you bought it because having nice cars makes you happy, its instrumental. If you bought it because you just prefer for future you to have a car, whether or not he’s happy about it or even wants a car, then it’s terminal.
As for why: you can answer to “why” with either “because” or “to” but you can only answer to “what for” with “to”. To ‘avoid’ confusion I prefer to use “why” when I want to get “because” and “what for” when I want to get “to”, e.g. Why did you buy this car? Because I like it. What for did you buy this car? To drive to work
I’m not sure, are we talking about subjective or objective values?
What’s an objective value?
“existing freely or independently from a mind)”
How are you defining value then?
It sounds to me like objective value is a contradiction in terms.
Value is just another way to say that something is liked or disliked by someone.
I’m sorry if all this time you were talking about subjective values. I have nothing against them.