What exactly are you saying? That primitive humans did not know about the relationship between sex and reproduction? Or that they did not understand that offspring are related to parents? Neither seems very likely.
You mean they were probably not consciously wanting to make babies? Maybe—or maybe not—but desires do not have to be consciously accessible in order to operate. Primitive humans behaved as though they wanted to make copies of their genes.
You mean they were probably not consciously wanting to make babies? Maybe—or maybe not—but desires do not have to be consciously accessible in order to operate. Primitive humans behaved as though they wanted to make copies of their genes.
Yes, this is actually my point. The fact that the desire functions to make X happen, does not mean that the desire is for X. Agents that result from natural selection on self-replicating molecules are doing what they do because agents constructed with the motivations for doing those things dominated the gene pool. But to the extent that they pursue goals, they do not have “dominate the gene pool” as a goal.
So: using this logic, you would presumably deny that Deep Blue’s goal involved winning games of chess—since looking at its utililty function, it is all to do with the value of promoting pawns, castling, piece mobility—and so on.
The fact that its desires function to make winning chess games happen, does not mean that the desire is for winning chess games.
Essentially, I think the issue is that people’s wants have coincided with producing half-copies, but this was contingent on the physical link between the two. The production of half-copies can be removed without loss of desire, so the desire must have been directed towards something else.
Yes, yes, and the same is true of pet adoption! A friend of mine found this ultra-cute little kitten, barely larger than a soda can (no joke). I couldn’t help but adopt him and take him to a vet, and care for that tiny tiny bundle of joy, so curious about the world, and so needing of my help. I named him Neko.
So there, we have another contravention of the gene’s wishes: it’s a pure genetic cost for me, and a pure genetic benefit for Neko.
Right—similarly you could say that the child doesn’t really want the donut—since the donut can be eliminated and replaced with stimulation of the hypoglossal and vagus nerves (and maybe some other ones) with very similar effects.
It seems like fighting with conventional language usage, though. Most people are quite happy with saying that the child wants the donut.
The child wants to eat the donut rather than store up calories or stimulate certain nerves. It still wants to eat the donut even if the sugar has been replaced with artificial sweetener.
People want sex rather than procreate or stimulate certain nerves. They still want sex even if contraception is used.
I wasn’t making any factual claims as such, I was merely showing that your use of your analogy was very flawed by demonstrating a better alignment of the elements, which in fact says the exact opposite of what you misconstrued the analogy as saying. If what you now say about people really wanting nerve stimulation is true that just means your analogy was beside the point in the first place, at least for those people. In no way can you reasonably maintain that people really want to procreate in the same way the child really wants the donut.
Once again, which people? You are not talking about the millions of people who go to fertility clinics, presumably. Those people apparently genuinely want to procreate.
Any sort. Regardless of what the people actually “really want”, a case where someone’s desire for procreation maps unto a child’s wish for a doughnut in any illuminating way seems extremely implausible, because even in cases where it’s clear that this desire exists it seems to be a different kind of want. More like a child wanting to grow up, say.
Foremost about the kind of people in the context of my first comment on this issue of course, those who (try to) have sex.
I think you must have some kind of different desire classification scheme from me. From my perspective, doughnuts and babies are both things which (some) people want.
There are some people who are more interested in sex than in babies. There are also some people who are more interested in babies than sex. Men are more likely to be found in the former category, while women are more likely to be found in the latter one.
Yes … but that’s a shortcut of speech. If the child would be equally satisfied with a different but similar donut, or with a completely different dessert (e.g. a cannolu), then it is clearly not that specific donut that is desired, but the results of getting that donut.
You make a complicated query, whose answer requires addressing several issues with far-reaching implications. I am composing a top-level post that addresses these issues and gives a full answer to your question.
The short answer is: Yes.
For the long answer, you can read the post when it’s up.
What exactly are you saying? That primitive humans did not know about the relationship between sex and reproduction? Or that they did not understand that offspring are related to parents? Neither seems very likely.
You mean they were probably not consciously wanting to make babies? Maybe—or maybe not—but desires do not have to be consciously accessible in order to operate. Primitive humans behaved as though they wanted to make copies of their genes.
See my response to User:Alicorn.
Yes, this is actually my point. The fact that the desire functions to make X happen, does not mean that the desire is for X. Agents that result from natural selection on self-replicating molecules are doing what they do because agents constructed with the motivations for doing those things dominated the gene pool. But to the extent that they pursue goals, they do not have “dominate the gene pool” as a goal.
So: using this logic, you would presumably deny that Deep Blue’s goal involved winning games of chess—since looking at its utililty function, it is all to do with the value of promoting pawns, castling, piece mobility—and so on.
The fact that its desires function to make winning chess games happen, does not mean that the desire is for winning chess games.
Would you agree with this analysis?
Essentially, I think the issue is that people’s wants have coincided with producing half-copies, but this was contingent on the physical link between the two. The production of half-copies can be removed without loss of desire, so the desire must have been directed towards something else.
Consider, for example, contraception.
But consider also sperm donation. (Not from the donor’s perspective, but from the recipient’s.) No sex, just a baby.
Contrawise, adoption: no shared genes, just a bundle of joy.
Yes, yes, and the same is true of pet adoption! A friend of mine found this ultra-cute little kitten, barely larger than a soda can (no joke). I couldn’t help but adopt him and take him to a vet, and care for that tiny tiny bundle of joy, so curious about the world, and so needing of my help. I named him Neko.
So there, we have another contravention of the gene’s wishes: it’s a pure genetic cost for me, and a pure genetic benefit for Neko.
Well, I mean, until I had him neutered.
Right—similarly you could say that the child doesn’t really want the donut—since the donut can be eliminated and replaced with stimulation of the hypoglossal and vagus nerves (and maybe some other ones) with very similar effects.
It seems like fighting with conventional language usage, though. Most people are quite happy with saying that the child wants the donut.
No.
The child wants to eat the donut rather than store up calories or stimulate certain nerves. It still wants to eat the donut even if the sugar has been replaced with artificial sweetener.
People want sex rather than procreate or stimulate certain nerves. They still want sex even if contraception is used.
Which people? Certainly Cypher tells a different story. He prefers the direct nerve stimulation to real-world experiences.
I wasn’t making any factual claims as such, I was merely showing that your use of your analogy was very flawed by demonstrating a better alignment of the elements, which in fact says the exact opposite of what you misconstrued the analogy as saying. If what you now say about people really wanting nerve stimulation is true that just means your analogy was beside the point in the first place, at least for those people. In no way can you reasonably maintain that people really want to procreate in the same way the child really wants the donut.
Once again, which people? You are not talking about the millions of people who go to fertility clinics, presumably. Those people apparently genuinely want to procreate.
Any sort. Regardless of what the people actually “really want”, a case where someone’s desire for procreation maps unto a child’s wish for a doughnut in any illuminating way seems extremely implausible, because even in cases where it’s clear that this desire exists it seems to be a different kind of want. More like a child wanting to grow up, say.
Foremost about the kind of people in the context of my first comment on this issue of course, those who (try to) have sex.
I think you must have some kind of different desire classification scheme from me. From my perspective, doughnuts and babies are both things which (some) people want.
There are some people who are more interested in sex than in babies. There are also some people who are more interested in babies than sex. Men are more likely to be found in the former category, while women are more likely to be found in the latter one.
Yeah, I was talking to Cypher the other day, and that’s what he told me.
Many drug addicts seem to share Cypher’s perspective on this issue. They want the pleasure, and aren’t too picky about where it comes from.
Yes … but that’s a shortcut of speech. If the child would be equally satisfied with a different but similar donut, or with a completely different dessert (e.g. a cannolu), then it is clearly not that specific donut that is desired, but the results of getting that donut.
You make a complicated query, whose answer requires addressing several issues with far-reaching implications. I am composing a top-level post that addresses these issues and gives a full answer to your question.
The short answer is: Yes.
For the long answer, you can read the post when it’s up.
OK thanks.
My response to “yes” would be normally something like:
OK—but I hope you can see what someone who said that deep blue “wanted” to win games of chess was talking about.
“To win chess games” is a concise answer to the question of “what does deep blue want?” that acts as a good approximation under many circumstances.