I think that since this story is Harry Potter and the Methods of rationality, its going to be Harry who saves the day. But if this wasn’t a story...
Harry is in a totally impossible position (baring some experimental transfiguration). The best hope lies with McGonagall. She’s been seen going off scrip before and if she realises the magnitude of the threat Volde now poses (perhaps Harry could impress this upon her, and point out that Volde has recently resolved to stop wasting time and just take over the world) she might realise that the only way left to stop Volde is to go totally off-script, and seek help from the Muggles.
While a gun can’t hurt a shielded wizard, the shielding only has so much strength. Bring in the Muggle army with overwhelming numbers, heavy weapons, helicopter gunships and so forth. Wizards have access to apperation, dissilusionment etc which might still allow them to win against a pure muggle army, but a combine force of Muggles and Wizards would also have access to anti-apperation jinxes and so forth.
Admittedly, this ends centuries of secrecy. Therefore, the second option she has is to go to the Wizard UN or whatever their equivalent is, and explain that without reinforcements she will be forced to go to the Muggles for help.
HPMOR isn’t centrally about having a battle. It’s a tale that teaches concepts of rationality. I don’t see how the story that you propose would help with that goal.
I’m also not sure how a Muggle army would help against Voldemorts 100+ horcrux protection. He can apparate around and constantly make new horcruxes. There’s nothing for a Muggle army to attack.
Admittedly, this ends centuries of secrecy. Therefore, the second option she has is to go to the Wizard UN or whatever their equivalent is, and explain that without reinforcements she will be forced to go to the Muggles for help.
I think the secrecy is likely backed by a bunch of curses that aren’t easily broken.
Well, it might teach a rationality concept that you don’t always have to personally be the hero and its ok to ask for help. But as I said, I’m not saying this is how I think the story will end, nor how it should end, just that this would be a possibility if it was real.
He can apparate around and constantly make new horcruxes.
This is true, but whatever happens a way has to be found to deal with this problem, and having an army would buy time. Its also possible that once Voldie has fallen, feeding his wand to the dementors would work.
I think the secrecy is likely backed by a bunch of curses that aren’t easily broken.
In canon I got the impression that the enforcement was conducted by the ministry of magic, rather than by ancient curses dating back to Merlin. But if the curses do exist, then this would stop my plan working.
Voldemort can hide his wand at a safe place. Then he detaches from a body.
As a free roaming spirit Voldemort can take over a student inside Hogwarts and transfigure solids into gas.
What’s the Muggle army going to do to defend against such an attack? Helicopter gunships don’t help at all.
But its not just a Muggle army, its a Muggle-Wizard alliance. The wizards counter the subtle threats, like this, while the muggles defend against a brute-force assault. Specifically, the Maurauder’s map, if it can be recovered, would detect Tom Riddle, and I’d guess there would be other methods.
Also, he has stated that he doesn’t want to kill students, he wants to rule them.
The gas doesn’t have to be poisonous. It could be an explosive (or simply oxygen, which returns to its original solid form, while it is in someone’s lungs …)
Also, Voldemort is flexible about not killing people. He doesn’t want to rule over a pile of ashes, but he won’t abandon his plans just because they force him to kill someone. Even Harry abandoned the superhero morality after the first victim …
True enough. In the case that Voldemort decides to use some form of gas weapon, the best solution seems to be a combination of biochem warfare suits, bubble-head charms, and mass ‘finite incarnum’ to clear the air. This would defend against transfigured gasses in general.
Given Quirrel’s rant about Muggles destroying the world with nukes, I doubt he’d escalate the situation by using one, especially when he has so many other options.
At present, McGonagall has no options because she doesn’t know what’s going on. In order for your question “What can McGonagall do?” to even make sense, we must first postulate that Harry/Hermione get out of this situation and that one of them is able to contact McGonagall while evading control or surveillance. Even if that is resolved without obviating your reason for considering McGonagall (that Harry is in an impossible situation), it’s not clear that McGonagall could:
Persuade enough Muggles to take her seriously
Anticipate Voldemort’s intentions and avenues of attack
Explain these to the Muggles in sufficient detail that the Muggles could devise countermeasures (McGonagall certainly can’t devise Muggle countermeasures for them)
Do all this in the time frame before Voldemort could take over magical Britain, not to mention whichever Muggles McGonagall has gone to for help
we must first postulate that Harry/Hermione get out of this situation and that one of them is able to contact McGonagall while evading control or surveillance.
Perhaps Harry could will a patronus to take an extremely small form?
Persuade enough Muggles to take her seriously
Doable, given enough time. If she is morally flexible enough, she could simply memory charm those at the top of the command chain, but… this isn’t the sort of thing I’d imagine her doing.
Anticipate Voldemort’s intentions and avenues of attack
This is a problem. Unless Harry explains it to her, I don’t think she will understand just how bad the situation is.
Explain these to the Muggles in sufficient detail that the Muggles could devise countermeasures (McGonagall certainly can’t devise Muggle countermeasures for them)
I’d seek advice from Muggleborns. But actually, in canon the muggle prime minister at least knows about the existence of wizards. I wonder if the muggles already have a (top secret) plan in place for what to do if wizards attack them?
Do all this in the time frame before Voldemort could take over magical Britain, not to mention whichever Muggles McGonagall has gone to for help
It is of course only quite resonantly that Muggles have gained enough firepower to be a threat to shielded wizards.
It is mentioned that Grindelwald confunded Neville Chamberlain, and that the Nazis were his “muggle pawns”. So I think its probable that “Imperious a few heads of state” has already happened and the result was WWII.
McGonagall would probably want to use a different method that didn’t involve unforgivable curses though.
“There is no headmaster to be notified if I kill you” was not said in Parseltongue, I think, so MM is presumably keyed into the Hogwarts wards at Headmaster level & may know Harry’s gone missing.
UPDATE: Hmm, there may be a different reason that sentence was not said in snakespeech—namely, the “I could kill you” part.
“I could kill you this instant, for there is no longer a Headmaster of Hogwarts to be informed of it. Doubt me all you wish, but remember that.”
I think that since this story is Harry Potter and the Methods of rationality, its going to be Harry who saves the day. But if this wasn’t a story...
Harry is in a totally impossible position (baring some experimental transfiguration). The best hope lies with McGonagall. She’s been seen going off scrip before and if she realises the magnitude of the threat Volde now poses (perhaps Harry could impress this upon her, and point out that Volde has recently resolved to stop wasting time and just take over the world) she might realise that the only way left to stop Volde is to go totally off-script, and seek help from the Muggles.
While a gun can’t hurt a shielded wizard, the shielding only has so much strength. Bring in the Muggle army with overwhelming numbers, heavy weapons, helicopter gunships and so forth. Wizards have access to apperation, dissilusionment etc which might still allow them to win against a pure muggle army, but a combine force of Muggles and Wizards would also have access to anti-apperation jinxes and so forth.
Admittedly, this ends centuries of secrecy. Therefore, the second option she has is to go to the Wizard UN or whatever their equivalent is, and explain that without reinforcements she will be forced to go to the Muggles for help.
HPMOR isn’t centrally about having a battle. It’s a tale that teaches concepts of rationality. I don’t see how the story that you propose would help with that goal.
I’m also not sure how a Muggle army would help against Voldemorts 100+ horcrux protection. He can apparate around and constantly make new horcruxes. There’s nothing for a Muggle army to attack.
I think the secrecy is likely backed by a bunch of curses that aren’t easily broken.
Well, it might teach a rationality concept that you don’t always have to personally be the hero and its ok to ask for help. But as I said, I’m not saying this is how I think the story will end, nor how it should end, just that this would be a possibility if it was real.
This is true, but whatever happens a way has to be found to deal with this problem, and having an army would buy time. Its also possible that once Voldie has fallen, feeding his wand to the dementors would work.
In canon I got the impression that the enforcement was conducted by the ministry of magic, rather than by ancient curses dating back to Merlin. But if the curses do exist, then this would stop my plan working.
You’re right. The Statute of Secrecy was created in the late 17th century and is enforced by the Ministries of Magic of the different countries.
How? I don’t think it reduces the ways Voldemort can attack individual wizards by a meaningful amount.
If you gather wizards in defensible locations such as Hogwarts, and then defend them with an army, then yes it does.
Voldemort can hide his wand at a safe place. Then he detaches from a body. As a free roaming spirit Voldemort can take over a student inside Hogwarts and transfigure solids into gas.
What’s the Muggle army going to do to defend against such an attack? Helicopter gunships don’t help at all.
Gas masks?
But its not just a Muggle army, its a Muggle-Wizard alliance. The wizards counter the subtle threats, like this, while the muggles defend against a brute-force assault. Specifically, the Maurauder’s map, if it can be recovered, would detect Tom Riddle, and I’d guess there would be other methods.
Also, he has stated that he doesn’t want to kill students, he wants to rule them.
The gas doesn’t have to be poisonous. It could be an explosive (or simply oxygen, which returns to its original solid form, while it is in someone’s lungs …)
Also, Voldemort is flexible about not killing people. He doesn’t want to rule over a pile of ashes, but he won’t abandon his plans just because they force him to kill someone. Even Harry abandoned the superhero morality after the first victim …
True enough. In the case that Voldemort decides to use some form of gas weapon, the best solution seems to be a combination of biochem warfare suits, bubble-head charms, and mass ‘finite incarnum’ to clear the air. This would defend against transfigured gasses in general.
Yes, it’s questionable that he even would want to attack Hogwarts.
He can just transfigure a nuclear bomb and explode it near Hogwarts. Hogwarts itself might have protections but the army around likely doesn’t.
Given Quirrel’s rant about Muggles destroying the world with nukes, I doubt he’d escalate the situation by using one, especially when he has so many other options.
I am dubious that “seeking help from the Muggles” is as straightforward as you seem to think it is.
I didn’t say it would be easy, but what other option does she have?
At present, McGonagall has no options because she doesn’t know what’s going on. In order for your question “What can McGonagall do?” to even make sense, we must first postulate that Harry/Hermione get out of this situation and that one of them is able to contact McGonagall while evading control or surveillance. Even if that is resolved without obviating your reason for considering McGonagall (that Harry is in an impossible situation), it’s not clear that McGonagall could:
Persuade enough Muggles to take her seriously
Anticipate Voldemort’s intentions and avenues of attack
Explain these to the Muggles in sufficient detail that the Muggles could devise countermeasures (McGonagall certainly can’t devise Muggle countermeasures for them)
Do all this in the time frame before Voldemort could take over magical Britain, not to mention whichever Muggles McGonagall has gone to for help
Avoid Voldemort while doing all of this
Perhaps Harry could will a patronus to take an extremely small form?
Doable, given enough time. If she is morally flexible enough, she could simply memory charm those at the top of the command chain, but… this isn’t the sort of thing I’d imagine her doing.
This is a problem. Unless Harry explains it to her, I don’t think she will understand just how bad the situation is.
I’d seek advice from Muggleborns. But actually, in canon the muggle prime minister at least knows about the existence of wizards. I wonder if the muggles already have a (top secret) plan in place for what to do if wizards attack them?
This is the big problem.
Can’t you Imperious a few heads of state?
(Though probably not, or someone would have done it, though McGonagall may be aware of the details of the restrictions.)
It is of course only quite resonantly that Muggles have gained enough firepower to be a threat to shielded wizards.
It is mentioned that Grindelwald confunded Neville Chamberlain, and that the Nazis were his “muggle pawns”. So I think its probable that “Imperious a few heads of state” has already happened and the result was WWII.
McGonagall would probably want to use a different method that didn’t involve unforgivable curses though.
“There is no headmaster to be notified if I kill you” was not said in Parseltongue, I think, so MM is presumably keyed into the Hogwarts wards at Headmaster level & may know Harry’s gone missing.
UPDATE: Hmm, there may be a different reason that sentence was not said in snakespeech—namely, the “I could kill you” part.