People complain a lot about the lack of foreshadowing of the mirror and the “Riddle can’t kill Riddle” curse. But I don’t think the lack of foreshadowing matters, because both of these things are minor details in the overall story line. Let’s start with the “Riddle can’t kill Riddle” curse. Voldemort wasn’t just not killing Harry because of this curse. After all now that the curse is lifted he still isn’t killing Harry. The curse is entirely unneeded to explain his earlier before, or his current behavior. Nor was the curse needed to resolve the current plot. Voldemort was in complete control of the situation all along.
So there’s no deus ex machina. It’s a sudden unexpected development, yes, but one that doesn’t really affect the story. It’s purpose was to drive home how utterly defeated Harry is. How he is now completely at the mercy of Voldemort, having no clever tricks or last minute saves. Also it gave us a nice cliffhanger. But you can take out the final lines from 111 and the first few lines from 112 and the story continues exactly as it does now.
The same with the mirror scene were Dumbledore gets defeated. Take it out, have Dumbledore never show up,and the story still continues exactly the same as it does now. Dumbledore is a side character. He needed to be got rid of, so neither Harry nor the reader would expect or hope for Dumbledore to show up at the last minute and save the day, but ultimate he’s not important to the story. And Voldie getting rid of Dumbledore with relativele ease is entirely expected anyway. He is established as being much stronger.
Anyway, bottomline: I really like the story so far. Elizier is doing a terrific job of driving home just how utterly screwed Harry is. How completely outplayed and outgunned he is.
I’m really looking forward to the resolution. I have no idea what it is going to be, but I fully expect it to be glorious. I do know it won’t be Harry casting “Problemsolvius” or someone showing up casting “Savethedayius”. I know this because Elizier went to great length to crush that expectation at every possible avenue.
Of course, my disappointment if I am mistaken and the final solution does some completely unexpected deus ex machina, shall be big indeed.
And for the record: My prediction is still that Voldemort shall not be dead by the end of the story. I give that 80%. Up to a few chapters ago my theory was that Voldemort wanted to team up with Harry to permanently get rid of death, but that seems increasingly less likely.
It’s not so much the lack of foreshadowing that bothers me with Dumbledore, but how stupid Dumbledore seems in that chapter.
First, he didn’t even wonder if Quirrel wasn’t possessed/imperiused by Voldemort, even after the Hogwarts security system identified the killer of Hermione to be Quirrel ?
Second, he actually voice that he was stupid, what does he gain in doing so ?
Third, how could he think he can defeat Voldemort with the “frozen time” spell when Voldemort is aware of that spell ? Voldemort has a horcrux network, he can just kill himself. The only hope would have been to use the “frozen time” by surprise.
And finally, he faces Voldemort without even bringing Fawkes with him ? Whyyyy ? If he had Fawkes, he would largely have had the time to teleport Harry to safety while Harry was saying his heroic “I was stupid don’t save me”.
The way Dumbledore acts in this chapter and the ease with which he’s defeated feels very artificial. Especially considering Dumbledore, who will not as smart as Quirrelmort, is still supposed to be near his level.
First, he didn’t even wonder if Quirrel wasn’t possessed/imperiused by Voldemort, even after the Hogwarts security system identified the killer of Hermione to be Quirrel ?
There was a healthy portion of HPMoR’s readerbase that wasn’t convinced that Quirrell was Voldemort, and unlike the readers, Dumbledore hasn’t read canon. I don’t really think you can take this as evidence for Dumbledore’s stupidity.
Second, he actually voice that he was stupid, what does he gain in doing so ?
Nothing, but from his perspective, it’s not like he would lose anything, either, and he was frustrated. People often vent aloud when frustrated.
Third, how could he think he can defeat Voldemort with the “frozen time” spell when Voldemort is aware of that spell ? Voldemort has a horcrux network, he can just kill himself. The only hope would have been to use the “frozen time” by surprise.
I imagine the Mirror would have trapped his soul in it if he had killed himself, or prevent the Horcrux network from coming into play by other means; else Quirrell would definitely have thought of it, and likely so would have Dumbledore.
And finally, he faces Voldemort without even bringing Fawkes with him ? Whyyyy ? If he had Fawkes, he would largely have had the time to teleport Harry to safety while Harry was saying his heroic “I was stupid don’t save me”.
According to Quirrell, the process cannot be stopped after being set in motion, and this probably also applies to removing people from the process (at least without exotic artifacts like the True Cloak of Invisibility). It’s uncertain, then, whether bringing Fawkes would have accomplished anything, and on top of that, we don’t actually know where Fawkes is; it’s very possible that he’s off somewhere else accomplishing some vitally important task Dumbledore set for him.
On the lack of foreshadowing for the “Riddle can’t kill Riddle” curse, there was enough stuff around for me to generate a similar hypothesis last year (admittedly with prompting).
The great-grandparent comment did make me consider unbreakable vows as a theory of what happened on Halloween. E.g. to prevent one of his Horcruxes from later killing him, Voldemort made an unbreakable vow not to magically interact with his alter egos (this causing Harry’s sense of Doom around Quirrell). Doesn’t seem necessary, though.
Dumbledore is a side character. He needed to be got rid of, so neither Harry nor the reader would expect or hope for Dumbledore to show up at the last minute and save the day
There’s technically six more hours of story time for a time-turned Dumbledore to show up, before going on to get trapped. He does mention that he’s in two places during the mirror scene.
Dumbledore has previously stated that trying to fake situations goes terribly wrong, so there could be some interesting play with that concept and him being trapped by the mirror.
I agree with you about the writing but I have a nearly opposite prediction.
I notice that in all the Harry talking to himself or reflecting quietly chapters he allways thinks something along the lines of “there seems to be almost no limit in what you could accomplish with magic if you really understood it”. Several times his mind circles around the becomus godus spell and considers some avenue and decides it wouldn’t work for some reason or another. In each case after thinking that his mind goes off on some other tangent.
So my prediction is that Harry has his situation get worse and worse until he can do nothing but think about how to et out of it. And while thinking and being forced not to divert his mind to other matters he will review clues that were allready available to us (had we been paying closer attention) and by reviewing the right facts in the right order he will deduce something about how magic works. That deduction will allow him to cast some absurdly powerful spell that solves his problems.
it has recently been pointed out that Harry’s Patronus v2.0 is powered by his life as well as his magic and that this (at least according to Voldemort, so obviously it’s true) makes it more powerful than it could have been if powered by just his magic
even the small fraction of his life he was able to give up on the spur of the moment was enough to restore Hermione’s life and magic, which even Voldemort was unable to do on his own
in canon, central to Harry’s ultimate victory is his willingness to die
and suggest that if your prediction is correct, what powers his absurdly powerful spell may be the sacrifice of the whole of his life and magic.
(Hmm. The power of a potion in HPMOR is determined by what went into making its ingredients, a curious and probably important discovery that hasn’t been applied yet for anything other than winning playfights. What went into making Harry was, among other things, the power and ingenuity—and in some sense even the life—of Lord Voldemort. Maaaaybe.)
What if he didn’t just sacrifice the whole of his magic, but the whole of entire magic?
Wow, a “get rid of magic and turn everyone into a muggle” spell would be actually worse than death to Voldemort. Just image having Voldemort living out his last few decades of life as a Muggle.
This makes me think about death being the worst fear of Voldemort. I guess being turned into a muggle and dying decades after that, would be much more fearful to him.
One further remark on that last paragraph. “A potion spends that which is invested in the creation of its ingredients”. What counts as creation? Ultimately, pretty much everything on earth is made of the remnants of supernovas...
I think that must be the role of the stirring and heating requirements: to control which aspects of the thing’s creation, and how much of them, are infused into the potion. There may well be a way to call forth solar fusion from common iron. But of course we know that no one has ever done it.
I would interpret “you could take the following things out and it would make no difference” as criticism of the writing, not as praise. If a piece of information adds complexity without adding proportional value, it shouldn’t be in there to begin with.
(this is a comment on your critique rather than on the quality of recent HPMOR chapters, which I am still undecided on)
Looking back, I think I could have written that more clearly.
People were complaining about the mirror, and the Riddle-curse, being deus ex machina. I’m saying they weren’t, because they weren’t moving the plot forward. Take them out and the overall plot remains the same. That doesn’t mean those scenes served no purpose in the story.
The Riddle-curse scene in particular I thought was very good. When I was reading chapter 111, when Harry got his wand back, I got all excited. I kept thinking perhaps Harry had a chance after all. I did of course wonder why Voldemort let him keep his wand, and figured there might be a deeper reason, but seeing Harry with a wand still makes you hope. And then suddenly Harry is given an opening … and it turns out to have been all Voldemort’s plan all along, and Harry is even more thoroughly beaten then he already was before.
That serves an important function in the story. It drives home how bad Harry’s situation is. It drives home that there will be no easy outs, that Voldemort really is very, very smart, and isn’t going to make any easily exploitable errors. Basically, the scene is setting the background, and building up suspense, for the final confrontation.
It’s perfectly fine for a scene like that to have no foreshadowing. It doesn’t need foreshadowing. Nobody sane will think: “Harry totally would have won without that plot twist!”.
I’d also like to point out that unexpected things were kind of expected to happen. We already knew Voldemort was playing a vastly more complex game than just “I want to grab power” or “I want to kill Harry”. And we also already knew that there were unknown traps guardian the stone.
I’m really looking forward to the resolution. I have no idea what it is going to be, but I fully expect it to be glorious. I do know it won’t be Harry casting “Problemsolvius” or someone showing up casting “Savethedayius”. I know this because Elizier went to great length to crush that expectation at every possible avenue.
So, maybe Harry uses partial transfiguration to kill all the Death Eaters. This still does nothing to solve the Voldemort Problem. And so it seems most likely that the Voldemort Problem is not the actual problem of the fic. As others have linked, Voldemort proposed a long time ago that he would duel Harry and “lose,” and then Harry is established as the eventual philosopher-king of Britain. Maybe, decades from now, Harry manages to stop Voldemort; but probably not.
The most salient alternative actual problem is the Death Problem. It seems like if Harry manages to solve the Death Problem then the Voldemort Problem may get a lot less important (though whether it does probably depends on exactly how he solves the Death Problem).
This… is actually a really good point. As I stated in my original comment, I am also a member of the group that doesn’t think the quality of HPMoR has been decreasing, but until I read your comment, it was just a vague gut feeling of “What are you talking about? It’s still good!” that I couldn’t quite put into words (at least, not in a way that made sense). Thank you for articulating that so well!
I disagree that the writing has deteriorated.
People complain a lot about the lack of foreshadowing of the mirror and the “Riddle can’t kill Riddle” curse. But I don’t think the lack of foreshadowing matters, because both of these things are minor details in the overall story line. Let’s start with the “Riddle can’t kill Riddle” curse. Voldemort wasn’t just not killing Harry because of this curse. After all now that the curse is lifted he still isn’t killing Harry. The curse is entirely unneeded to explain his earlier before, or his current behavior. Nor was the curse needed to resolve the current plot. Voldemort was in complete control of the situation all along.
So there’s no deus ex machina. It’s a sudden unexpected development, yes, but one that doesn’t really affect the story. It’s purpose was to drive home how utterly defeated Harry is. How he is now completely at the mercy of Voldemort, having no clever tricks or last minute saves. Also it gave us a nice cliffhanger. But you can take out the final lines from 111 and the first few lines from 112 and the story continues exactly as it does now.
The same with the mirror scene were Dumbledore gets defeated. Take it out, have Dumbledore never show up,and the story still continues exactly the same as it does now. Dumbledore is a side character. He needed to be got rid of, so neither Harry nor the reader would expect or hope for Dumbledore to show up at the last minute and save the day, but ultimate he’s not important to the story. And Voldie getting rid of Dumbledore with relativele ease is entirely expected anyway. He is established as being much stronger.
Anyway, bottomline: I really like the story so far. Elizier is doing a terrific job of driving home just how utterly screwed Harry is. How completely outplayed and outgunned he is.
I’m really looking forward to the resolution. I have no idea what it is going to be, but I fully expect it to be glorious. I do know it won’t be Harry casting “Problemsolvius” or someone showing up casting “Savethedayius”. I know this because Elizier went to great length to crush that expectation at every possible avenue.
Of course, my disappointment if I am mistaken and the final solution does some completely unexpected deus ex machina, shall be big indeed.
And for the record: My prediction is still that Voldemort shall not be dead by the end of the story. I give that 80%. Up to a few chapters ago my theory was that Voldemort wanted to team up with Harry to permanently get rid of death, but that seems increasingly less likely.
It’s not so much the lack of foreshadowing that bothers me with Dumbledore, but how stupid Dumbledore seems in that chapter.
First, he didn’t even wonder if Quirrel wasn’t possessed/imperiused by Voldemort, even after the Hogwarts security system identified the killer of Hermione to be Quirrel ?
Second, he actually voice that he was stupid, what does he gain in doing so ?
Third, how could he think he can defeat Voldemort with the “frozen time” spell when Voldemort is aware of that spell ? Voldemort has a horcrux network, he can just kill himself. The only hope would have been to use the “frozen time” by surprise.
And finally, he faces Voldemort without even bringing Fawkes with him ? Whyyyy ? If he had Fawkes, he would largely have had the time to teleport Harry to safety while Harry was saying his heroic “I was stupid don’t save me”.
The way Dumbledore acts in this chapter and the ease with which he’s defeated feels very artificial. Especially considering Dumbledore, who will not as smart as Quirrelmort, is still supposed to be near his level.
There was a healthy portion of HPMoR’s readerbase that wasn’t convinced that Quirrell was Voldemort, and unlike the readers, Dumbledore hasn’t read canon. I don’t really think you can take this as evidence for Dumbledore’s stupidity.
Nothing, but from his perspective, it’s not like he would lose anything, either, and he was frustrated. People often vent aloud when frustrated.
I imagine the Mirror would have trapped his soul in it if he had killed himself, or prevent the Horcrux network from coming into play by other means; else Quirrell would definitely have thought of it, and likely so would have Dumbledore.
According to Quirrell, the process cannot be stopped after being set in motion, and this probably also applies to removing people from the process (at least without exotic artifacts like the True Cloak of Invisibility). It’s uncertain, then, whether bringing Fawkes would have accomplished anything, and on top of that, we don’t actually know where Fawkes is; it’s very possible that he’s off somewhere else accomplishing some vitally important task Dumbledore set for him.
On the lack of foreshadowing for the “Riddle can’t kill Riddle” curse, there was enough stuff around for me to generate a similar hypothesis last year (admittedly with prompting).
There’s technically six more hours of story time for a time-turned Dumbledore to show up, before going on to get trapped. He does mention that he’s in two places during the mirror scene.
Dumbledore has previously stated that trying to fake situations goes terribly wrong, so there could be some interesting play with that concept and him being trapped by the mirror.
Mirro!Dumbledore appears to not be time-turned: 110 was edited so that Dumbledore says:
That doesn’t sound like he just spun back—it sounds like there might be more than one Dumbledore running around.
I agree with you about the writing but I have a nearly opposite prediction.
I notice that in all the Harry talking to himself or reflecting quietly chapters he allways thinks something along the lines of “there seems to be almost no limit in what you could accomplish with magic if you really understood it”. Several times his mind circles around the becomus godus spell and considers some avenue and decides it wouldn’t work for some reason or another. In each case after thinking that his mind goes off on some other tangent.
So my prediction is that Harry has his situation get worse and worse until he can do nothing but think about how to et out of it. And while thinking and being forced not to divert his mind to other matters he will review clues that were allready available to us (had we been paying closer attention) and by reviewing the right facts in the right order he will deduce something about how magic works. That deduction will allow him to cast some absurdly powerful spell that solves his problems.
I remark that
it has recently been pointed out that Harry’s Patronus v2.0 is powered by his life as well as his magic and that this (at least according to Voldemort, so obviously it’s true) makes it more powerful than it could have been if powered by just his magic
even the small fraction of his life he was able to give up on the spur of the moment was enough to restore Hermione’s life and magic, which even Voldemort was unable to do on his own
in canon, central to Harry’s ultimate victory is his willingness to die
and suggest that if your prediction is correct, what powers his absurdly powerful spell may be the sacrifice of the whole of his life and magic.
(Hmm. The power of a potion in HPMOR is determined by what went into making its ingredients, a curious and probably important discovery that hasn’t been applied yet for anything other than winning playfights. What went into making Harry was, among other things, the power and ingenuity—and in some sense even the life—of Lord Voldemort. Maaaaybe.)
What if he didn’t just sacrifice the whole of his magic, but the whole of entire magic?
Wow, a “get rid of magic and turn everyone into a muggle” spell would be actually worse than death to Voldemort. Just image having Voldemort living out his last few decades of life as a Muggle.
This makes me think about death being the worst fear of Voldemort. I guess being turned into a muggle and dying decades after that, would be much more fearful to him.
You may be on to something. Merlin created his Interdict with exactly that sacrifice.
One further remark on that last paragraph. “A potion spends that which is invested in the creation of its ingredients”. What counts as creation? Ultimately, pretty much everything on earth is made of the remnants of supernovas...
I think that must be the role of the stirring and heating requirements: to control which aspects of the thing’s creation, and how much of them, are infused into the potion. There may well be a way to call forth solar fusion from common iron. But of course we know that no one has ever done it.
I would interpret “you could take the following things out and it would make no difference” as criticism of the writing, not as praise. If a piece of information adds complexity without adding proportional value, it shouldn’t be in there to begin with.
(this is a comment on your critique rather than on the quality of recent HPMOR chapters, which I am still undecided on)
Looking back, I think I could have written that more clearly.
People were complaining about the mirror, and the Riddle-curse, being deus ex machina. I’m saying they weren’t, because they weren’t moving the plot forward. Take them out and the overall plot remains the same. That doesn’t mean those scenes served no purpose in the story.
The Riddle-curse scene in particular I thought was very good. When I was reading chapter 111, when Harry got his wand back, I got all excited. I kept thinking perhaps Harry had a chance after all. I did of course wonder why Voldemort let him keep his wand, and figured there might be a deeper reason, but seeing Harry with a wand still makes you hope. And then suddenly Harry is given an opening … and it turns out to have been all Voldemort’s plan all along, and Harry is even more thoroughly beaten then he already was before.
That serves an important function in the story. It drives home how bad Harry’s situation is. It drives home that there will be no easy outs, that Voldemort really is very, very smart, and isn’t going to make any easily exploitable errors. Basically, the scene is setting the background, and building up suspense, for the final confrontation.
It’s perfectly fine for a scene like that to have no foreshadowing. It doesn’t need foreshadowing. Nobody sane will think: “Harry totally would have won without that plot twist!”.
I’d also like to point out that unexpected things were kind of expected to happen. We already knew Voldemort was playing a vastly more complex game than just “I want to grab power” or “I want to kill Harry”. And we also already knew that there were unknown traps guardian the stone.
So, maybe Harry uses partial transfiguration to kill all the Death Eaters. This still does nothing to solve the Voldemort Problem. And so it seems most likely that the Voldemort Problem is not the actual problem of the fic. As others have linked, Voldemort proposed a long time ago that he would duel Harry and “lose,” and then Harry is established as the eventual philosopher-king of Britain. Maybe, decades from now, Harry manages to stop Voldemort; but probably not.
The most salient alternative actual problem is the Death Problem. It seems like if Harry manages to solve the Death Problem then the Voldemort Problem may get a lot less important (though whether it does probably depends on exactly how he solves the Death Problem).
“Anyway, bottomline: I really like the story so far”
I’m with you. Chapter 108 is my favorite in the story, explains so much.
This… is actually a really good point. As I stated in my original comment, I am also a member of the group that doesn’t think the quality of HPMoR has been decreasing, but until I read your comment, it was just a vague gut feeling of “What are you talking about? It’s still good!” that I couldn’t quite put into words (at least, not in a way that made sense). Thank you for articulating that so well!