I don’t know how to handle the fact that everything Aella said about vulnerability and reciprocity is true, and also some people are vastly better at things than other people, and some people are better at a lot of things than other people. If you insist on being treated as an equal in certain ways, you either rule out interacting with people who are sufficiently better at sufficiently many things than you, or demand they lie. Many people claiming vast amounts of power knowledge and wisdom are flat out wrong, but not all of them are. And even if you could distinguish between the two perfectly, being genuinely better at a lot of things doesn’t make someone inherently safe: in many ways it makes them more dangerous, either because they can use superior skill to manipulate you, or because sometimes doing the wrong thing because it feels right to you is long better than doing the right thing because someone told you to.
I’m not ruling out “just don’t interact with people who are sufficiently beyond you (especially if they won’t spend time proactively valuing you in ways you haven’t actually earned)”, but “only interact with your exact equals” can’t be right either- it removes the best people to learn from.
I think there’s a difference here I didn’t really touch upon in the post; I think it’s possible for someone to clearly know a lot more than you, but still make their moves salient. For example; I know two men who are friends, both high status, have ‘followers’, are very smart, and hold extremely similar beliefs. One is the one I mentioned who I had a long talk with, and I consider him to have been doing frame control. The other similarly advocated for his own beliefs, wasn’t open to mine, but his frame was much more salient; he was clear about his moves, and didn’t feel like he was implicitly asking me to submit to him, or something?
Or they can make clear moves to equalize; I know many people with far more expertise than I do who do very subtle social moves constantly to hand power and respect back to me, somehow without pretending that they don’t know more than I do. I’m thinking of this one guy I respect a lot who is a teacher and coach and has a podcast, and he has way more experience and wisdom than me. I had lunch with him once and walked away with the sense that he had just… handed me his heart? Somehow he seemed to be actively imbuing me with power and surrendering himself before me, and at no point did it feel like he was attempting to conceal his own abilities or self-efface to make me comfortable. It was incredible.
Yeah, there definitely is a difference, and this is part of it (another comment pointed to if they can take a joke about themselves, which I think is another good marker). I have a draft post about epistemic legibility that feels like it might be related to what you mean by salience but I’m not positive.
I posted this elsewhere in comments, but I think there are two types of frame controllers: the assertive and the receptive types. Think of this comment as inspired by Aella’s, and a processing of some of my own experiences. I don’t know her at all, and won’t pretend to understand her experiences very deeply.
I interpret Aella as mainly referring to receptive frame controllers, while Elizabeth is referring to assertive frame controllers.
A key function of useful hierarchy is to make genuine capability legible and to improve our ability to coordinate around it. But not all hierarchies are formal, and even the formal ones need informal maintenance. Hence, you get genuine experts, who will make moves to establish their superiority and reinforce a subordinate’s place in the hierarchy. This isn’t always good, of course. Experts will fight for turf they haven’t really earned. Sometimes, this is just bad. Other times, it’s because what they’re doing isn’t so much trying to grab more territory, as to prevent someone who hasn’t earned it from doing so.
As an example from my life, think of the psychiatrist who makes authoritative-sounding pronouncements about the COVID-19 pandemic at the family dinner, even though he’s not 100% clear on the difference between the CDC and the FDA, because a master’s student in biomedical engineering has been voicing his own opinion on a narrow topic based on some careful research. The psychiatrist doesn’t want the MS student, who doesn’t even have a graduate degree in the field, to be mistaken for an expert on par with him, an experienced MD. Yet the psychiatrist doesn’t necessarily believe himself to be an expert on COVID-19. He just doesn’t want the MS student to overstep.
By contrast, the “receptive” frame controller doesn’t tend to have any significant concrete expertise, conventional formal status, or money. He might set himself up as a coach, guru, or religious figure. Fatherhood is also in this zone. Rather than being recognized for his tangible accomplishments or contributions, and engaging in assertive actions to make this recognition legible to others, he has to impress people who don’t know any better with some sort of intangible aura of mystery, wisdom, or social access.
The receptive frame controller has to make up for a lack of any tangible utility to attract people to him. He instead uses his own availability. He invites people over. He lets them stay. He makes himself enormously available to those who are willing to give him an even more enormous amount of their time. Most people have better things to do, but a few don’t, and they’ll get involved. Once the receptive frame controller has developed some sort of following, it becomes part of his aura. Everybody tries to figure out what everybody else is following him for, and trying to justify the time they’re all spending, searching for any sliver of value or meaning in the situation.
It would be unusual for people to stay long-term in situations that needed constant, ongoing justifications. If you were a monk in a monastery and had a deep, gut-level clarity about what you were doing there, the master wouldn’t need to convince you.
If that isn’t operating, then sometimes, there is at least a time-limited commitment. “Try it out for a year, and then you can quit if you don’t like it,” the parent might say to their child about an imposition of piano lessons.
What Aella describes is a frame controller who has to constantly exert his energy to justify the enormous amount of time and pain that his followers are throwing away on him. And there is no time-limited commitment. In theory, it goes on forever, and the commitment grows with time.
This, for me, is the key criteria that distinguishes a receptive frame controller from the normal give-and-take of social relationships. It’s the invitation to waste an unlimited amount of time, with no cutoff and no promise of a tangible outcome at a given time, with the experience being painful and consuming. The people who stay have no clear sense that they have alternatives.
This also helps me explain why I still find myself dealing with “frame control” on a daily basis, and yet feel as though I have become entirely immune to the dynamic Aella is describing in the OP. Having excluded receptive frame controllers from my life, or learned how to resist their tactics nearly effortlessly, I spend much more time in spaces where tangible competence is the main focus. This brings me into contact with lots of assertive frame controllers. That’s a form of hierarchy I don’t expect to ever be free of, but I also don’t resent it too much, because I understand that its basic purpose aligns well-enough with my own goals to be useful to me.
Question: how do you know whether the second man had a salient frame, rather than a frame you simply agree with?
Or to put that question in a different way: how do you tell genuine interaction with no Frame Control from perfect manipulation that simply clicked well with your Frame?
I don’t know how to handle the fact that everything Aella said about vulnerability and reciprocity is true, and also some people are vastly better at things than other people, and some people are better at a lot of things than other people. If you insist on being treated as an equal in certain ways, you either rule out interacting with people who are sufficiently better at sufficiently many things than you, or demand they lie. Many people claiming vast amounts of power knowledge and wisdom are flat out wrong, but not all of them are. And even if you could distinguish between the two perfectly, being genuinely better at a lot of things doesn’t make someone inherently safe: in many ways it makes them more dangerous, either because they can use superior skill to manipulate you, or because sometimes doing the wrong thing because it feels right to you is long better than doing the right thing because someone told you to.
I’m not ruling out “just don’t interact with people who are sufficiently beyond you (especially if they won’t spend time proactively valuing you in ways you haven’t actually earned)”, but “only interact with your exact equals” can’t be right either- it removes the best people to learn from.
I think there’s a difference here I didn’t really touch upon in the post; I think it’s possible for someone to clearly know a lot more than you, but still make their moves salient. For example; I know two men who are friends, both high status, have ‘followers’, are very smart, and hold extremely similar beliefs. One is the one I mentioned who I had a long talk with, and I consider him to have been doing frame control. The other similarly advocated for his own beliefs, wasn’t open to mine, but his frame was much more salient; he was clear about his moves, and didn’t feel like he was implicitly asking me to submit to him, or something?
Or they can make clear moves to equalize; I know many people with far more expertise than I do who do very subtle social moves constantly to hand power and respect back to me, somehow without pretending that they don’t know more than I do. I’m thinking of this one guy I respect a lot who is a teacher and coach and has a podcast, and he has way more experience and wisdom than me. I had lunch with him once and walked away with the sense that he had just… handed me his heart? Somehow he seemed to be actively imbuing me with power and surrendering himself before me, and at no point did it feel like he was attempting to conceal his own abilities or self-efface to make me comfortable. It was incredible.
Yeah, there definitely is a difference, and this is part of it (another comment pointed to if they can take a joke about themselves, which I think is another good marker). I have a draft post about epistemic legibility that feels like it might be related to what you mean by salience but I’m not positive.
I posted this elsewhere in comments, but I think there are two types of frame controllers: the assertive and the receptive types. Think of this comment as inspired by Aella’s, and a processing of some of my own experiences. I don’t know her at all, and won’t pretend to understand her experiences very deeply.
I interpret Aella as mainly referring to receptive frame controllers, while Elizabeth is referring to assertive frame controllers.
A key function of useful hierarchy is to make genuine capability legible and to improve our ability to coordinate around it. But not all hierarchies are formal, and even the formal ones need informal maintenance. Hence, you get genuine experts, who will make moves to establish their superiority and reinforce a subordinate’s place in the hierarchy. This isn’t always good, of course. Experts will fight for turf they haven’t really earned. Sometimes, this is just bad. Other times, it’s because what they’re doing isn’t so much trying to grab more territory, as to prevent someone who hasn’t earned it from doing so.
As an example from my life, think of the psychiatrist who makes authoritative-sounding pronouncements about the COVID-19 pandemic at the family dinner, even though he’s not 100% clear on the difference between the CDC and the FDA, because a master’s student in biomedical engineering has been voicing his own opinion on a narrow topic based on some careful research. The psychiatrist doesn’t want the MS student, who doesn’t even have a graduate degree in the field, to be mistaken for an expert on par with him, an experienced MD. Yet the psychiatrist doesn’t necessarily believe himself to be an expert on COVID-19. He just doesn’t want the MS student to overstep.
By contrast, the “receptive” frame controller doesn’t tend to have any significant concrete expertise, conventional formal status, or money. He might set himself up as a coach, guru, or religious figure. Fatherhood is also in this zone. Rather than being recognized for his tangible accomplishments or contributions, and engaging in assertive actions to make this recognition legible to others, he has to impress people who don’t know any better with some sort of intangible aura of mystery, wisdom, or social access.
The receptive frame controller has to make up for a lack of any tangible utility to attract people to him. He instead uses his own availability. He invites people over. He lets them stay. He makes himself enormously available to those who are willing to give him an even more enormous amount of their time. Most people have better things to do, but a few don’t, and they’ll get involved. Once the receptive frame controller has developed some sort of following, it becomes part of his aura. Everybody tries to figure out what everybody else is following him for, and trying to justify the time they’re all spending, searching for any sliver of value or meaning in the situation.
It would be unusual for people to stay long-term in situations that needed constant, ongoing justifications. If you were a monk in a monastery and had a deep, gut-level clarity about what you were doing there, the master wouldn’t need to convince you.
If that isn’t operating, then sometimes, there is at least a time-limited commitment. “Try it out for a year, and then you can quit if you don’t like it,” the parent might say to their child about an imposition of piano lessons.
What Aella describes is a frame controller who has to constantly exert his energy to justify the enormous amount of time and pain that his followers are throwing away on him. And there is no time-limited commitment. In theory, it goes on forever, and the commitment grows with time.
This, for me, is the key criteria that distinguishes a receptive frame controller from the normal give-and-take of social relationships. It’s the invitation to waste an unlimited amount of time, with no cutoff and no promise of a tangible outcome at a given time, with the experience being painful and consuming. The people who stay have no clear sense that they have alternatives.
This also helps me explain why I still find myself dealing with “frame control” on a daily basis, and yet feel as though I have become entirely immune to the dynamic Aella is describing in the OP. Having excluded receptive frame controllers from my life, or learned how to resist their tactics nearly effortlessly, I spend much more time in spaces where tangible competence is the main focus. This brings me into contact with lots of assertive frame controllers. That’s a form of hierarchy I don’t expect to ever be free of, but I also don’t resent it too much, because I understand that its basic purpose aligns well-enough with my own goals to be useful to me.
Question: how do you know whether the second man had a salient frame, rather than a frame you simply agree with?
Or to put that question in a different way: how do you tell genuine interaction with no Frame Control from perfect manipulation that simply clicked well with your Frame?