Those are the reference category of counter-examples to the current system and some of us are uncomfortable with them as-is. (I’m mostly fine with them overall, all things considered.)
Calling for the “delenda” of the WHO, or the FDA, seem obviously different than the ‘original’ usage, e.g. “Carthago delenda est!”. Zvi is calling for radical reform, or possibly (?) abolishment, of government organizations – not the literal destruction of their leaders or employees.
Referring to DeBlasio as a “worst person” is also pretty narrowly restricted to his pandemic-related actions.
On second thought – you’re right that there’s pretty overt politicization, but maybe not in the ‘standard’ (prototypical) U.S. left-versus-right – it’s more a ‘pandemic-emergency versus business-as-usual’ pair of coalitions (as I understand it). This seems – to me – pretty orthogonal to the standard left-versus-right conflicts. But they are overtly political.
I’m still inclined to give those posts a pass on that kind of thing given the enormous value those posts otherwise have. (I also share the general ‘delenda est’ sentiment towards the referenced organizations and administrations – as organizations and administrations, not as groups of individual people. So I’m definitely biased.)
I did not interpret Zvi’s delenda calls as calls for killing people. However, the usage of historical phrases is not innocuous. When you do that, you explicitly refer to the context, including the modern usage. I think it’s not useful to make up new interpretations of words on the fly, otherwise we might end up in a Humpty-Dumpty usage of language.
Moreover, I know that the LW community, like every community, likes to use a lot of insider language (which may be signalling, which I explicitly note here also to include an example). But then you should expect that outsiders do not understand it, and give it a different interpretation.
This is kind of reasonable, but I think it should be rounded-off to ignored – in this case.
In general, language is ‘merely reasonable’ – it’s always a bit Humpty-Dumpty.
I don’t think the use of any phrase, historical or not, could be considered explicit reference of its “context”.
Even words like ‘family’, historically, sometimes referred to the ‘servants’ (and slaves) of a household. But it seems reasonable to continue using ‘family’ – the common agreement of English speakers/listeners/writers/readers is that’s perfectly okay and unobjectionable.
Or maybe you’re right? ‘delenda est’ is very different from ‘family’. There really aren’t any other uses or interpretations beyond, at most, metaphorical violence. I certainly don’t like (some) other violent words or phrases (sometimes), even when they’re obviously metaphorical. And it’s not obviously wrong to think that avoiding ‘violent’ language might be net-good anyways.
But this post was cross-posted from the author’s personal blog and is a (mildly) contentious exception to the kinds of posts that are normally considered worth listing on the ‘front page’ of the site. Because of that, I’m still inclined to let this pass.
But I’ve definitely changed my mind about the phrase being entirely innocuous.
Those are the reference category of counter-examples to the current system and some of us are uncomfortable with them as-is. (I’m mostly fine with them overall, all things considered.)
Calling for the “delenda” of the WHO, or the FDA, seem obviously different than the ‘original’ usage, e.g. “Carthago delenda est!”. Zvi is calling for radical reform, or possibly (?) abolishment, of government organizations – not the literal destruction of their leaders or employees.
Referring to DeBlasio as a “worst person” is also pretty narrowly restricted to his pandemic-related actions.
On second thought – you’re right that there’s pretty overt politicization, but maybe not in the ‘standard’ (prototypical) U.S. left-versus-right – it’s more a ‘pandemic-emergency versus business-as-usual’ pair of coalitions (as I understand it). This seems – to me – pretty orthogonal to the standard left-versus-right conflicts. But they are overtly political.
I’m still inclined to give those posts a pass on that kind of thing given the enormous value those posts otherwise have. (I also share the general ‘delenda est’ sentiment towards the referenced organizations and administrations – as organizations and administrations, not as groups of individual people. So I’m definitely biased.)
I did not interpret Zvi’s delenda calls as calls for killing people. However, the usage of historical phrases is not innocuous. When you do that, you explicitly refer to the context, including the modern usage. I think it’s not useful to make up new interpretations of words on the fly, otherwise we might end up in a Humpty-Dumpty usage of language.
Moreover, I know that the LW community, like every community, likes to use a lot of insider language (which may be signalling, which I explicitly note here also to include an example). But then you should expect that outsiders do not understand it, and give it a different interpretation.
This is kind of reasonable, but I think it should be rounded-off to ignored – in this case.
In general, language is ‘merely reasonable’ – it’s always a bit Humpty-Dumpty.
I don’t think the use of any phrase, historical or not, could be considered explicit reference of its “context”.
Even words like ‘family’, historically, sometimes referred to the ‘servants’ (and slaves) of a household. But it seems reasonable to continue using ‘family’ – the common agreement of English speakers/listeners/writers/readers is that’s perfectly okay and unobjectionable.
Or maybe you’re right? ‘delenda est’ is very different from ‘family’. There really aren’t any other uses or interpretations beyond, at most, metaphorical violence. I certainly don’t like (some) other violent words or phrases (sometimes), even when they’re obviously metaphorical. And it’s not obviously wrong to think that avoiding ‘violent’ language might be net-good anyways.
But this post was cross-posted from the author’s personal blog and is a (mildly) contentious exception to the kinds of posts that are normally considered worth listing on the ‘front page’ of the site. Because of that, I’m still inclined to let this pass.
But I’ve definitely changed my mind about the phrase being entirely innocuous.