It occurs to me that I’ve seen very little mention of one major dangling plot thread: The Interdict of Merlin. Bypassing the interdict may get Harry sufficient power, without necessarily getting at ‘the source of magic’ or becoming omnipotent.
There’s some precedent for this: partial transfiguration, patronus 2.0, and acorn brewing were all made possible by understanding something others did not. It’s possible that the Interdict is something similar, and that Harry will be able to understand his way through it.
This mechanism appears to have been used in other of Eliezer’s works as well, for example the “Jeffreyssai” stories in the Sequences.
The problem is that “bypassing the Interdict” is not, on its own, useful; it’s only valuable if Harry happens to have written notes on powerful magic spells that are censored by the Interdict. Apparently, there’s a loophole allowing Interdict-restricted material to exist (wizards can keep notes for themselves, implied by chapter 23), but it seems unlikely that Harry would be able to get ahold of much of it. (Possible exception: Bacon’s diary? Quirrell didn’t think Bacon found much of interest, but he could be wrong.)
Related: since Muggle physics can apparently contribute to powerful magics (see: partial transfiguration) would the Interdict apply if Harry ever wrote a physics book? What would the Interdict do if a Muggle happened to accidentally write (presumably as fiction) the details of a powerful magic spell? Can Muggles read Interdict-restricted works?
Prediction: by the end of the story, Harry will somehow have managed to dispell the Interdict of Merlin. Given his opinions on muggle society that gains power with each generation, versus wizard society that loses power with each generation, there is no way Harry is going to let that stand. Given that it was brought about by magic, presumably it can be cancelled by magic, and Harry will find a way.
[regarding nuclear weapons]
“worse than the more...recondite...aspects of wizardry”
“slightly worse than anything that’s left in these days. nothing like what wiped out atlantis”. -There’s a very big chance that there are interdicted spells that aren’t quite as bad as the latter, but still a lot more powerfull than a nuke. There’s no way Harry is going to intentionally switch the interdict OFF.
Although...he might try bypassing it with a bit of information theory at a conceptual level, or some mind-altering spells...say, tricking himself into believing he already understands a spell, thereby tricking the interdict into thinking he already has access to that spell. Or maybe even forcing himself to following the directions no matter how stupid they seem. (cough philosopher’s stone cough).
Interesting, I wonder if Imperius helps with following instructions, i.e. if you’re better at following (non-Imperius) instructions after X Imperiuses you to follow Y’s instructions, than if you just wanted to follow Y’s instructions at the same time. There are very probably spells that make you (temporarily) better in terms of dexterity and such. Hell, there’s Felix. If the PS recipe is correct, its difficulty should not be a problem for Harry. (At least if we assume Flamel actually did create one—which we’ve taken on trust until now—which implies it’s within (extreme) human bounds of ability.)
“which we’ve taken on trust until now”
-it’s a cannon artifact, the (in)famous forbidden corridor is still there, the door can still be unlocked with alohamora, flamel wants his whatever hidden in hogwarts, Quirrlmort can (probably) find it wherever it goes...it’s there. Whether it does EXACTLY what it does in cannon or not, or acts more like the one from Full-Metal Alchemist....is more of an open question, especially since elixir of life itself never makes an on-screen appearance in cannon.
But I’ll give you this, the recipe doesn’t have to be correct, since that’s not in cannon as far as I know.
Yeah, forgot about that, sorry. Still, it would be remarkable if nothing could help you be better at manual tasks, and nobody remarked on it in the text. I mean, hell, at the very least you can use Imperius to make someone practice for a couple of decades.
Whether it does EXACTLY what it does in cannon or not, or acts more like the one from Full-Metal Alchemist....is more of an open question, especially since elixir of life itself never makes an on-screen appearance in cannon.
I was actually thinking there might not be a philosophers’ stone as described. E.g., the recipe could be completely bogus, or maybe the result only transmutes lead to gold. (Potentially interesting point: I can’t think of any example of alchemy in-story that results in something non-liquid.)
Flamel might be (or appear) immortal for any other reason, e.g., he discovered Horcrux 2.0, or he has a secret Unicorn farm, or he possesses people and takes Polyjuice, or he’s not really human, or there’s a conspiracy that makes it seem like Flamel exists just so people don’t try to look for immortality because “they already know” how to get it, etc. I mean, the only “evidence” mentioned for the fact that the PS works is Flamel.
Basically we have a very surprising and useful result for a self-reported self-experiment with a sample size of one, that has not been replicated in hundreds of years despite known attempts by known competent, motivated, and resourceful people provided with (allegedly) clear and complete documentation. Nobody even managed to steal either the stone or the elixir it’s supposed to make. (And IIRC, it’s claimed that Flamel needs to use the elixir repeatedly.)
“Basically we have a very surprising and useful result for a self-reported self-experiment with a sample size of one, that has not been replicated in hundreds of years despite known attempts by known competent, motivated, and resourceful people provided with (allegedly) clear and complete documentation. Nobody even managed to steal either the stone or the elixir it’s supposed to make. (And IIRC, it’s claimed that Flamel needs to use the elixir repeatedly.)”
-well…
If it were purely a real-life situation I would agree. but we have priors from...cannon…
Oh. Right. it never actually DOES anything onscreen that couldn’t be done by a pretty red(?) rock. There’s still a high chance that Cannon!Stone works as advertised, though...
I shall refer to “the McGuffin”. the McGuffin may or may not be a working philosopher’s stone.
lets see.
Quirrelmort has some way of detecting the McGuffin.
Quirrelmort thinks it’s valuable.
Dumbledore REFUSES to hide it outside of hogwarts.
Harry notes that Wizards have obunoculars. I note that wizards think they’re great devices to watch Quidditch from a distance, and might not have thought to look at something CLOSE with them.
-conclusion: hm....quite the mixed bag. Quite the mixed bag indeed...
p.s. Do you REALLY think there’s any significant chance that MoR unicorn blood works as advertised in Cannon? I once fantasized about asking a unicorn for a sample of blood in order to totally bypass the downside.
...now that i’m thinking about unicorns, who’s blood Cannon Quirrel drank, I find it rather likely that Quirrelmort’s zombie-mode is the side-effect of drinking unicorn blood, and that it would be worse if he were killing unicorns. Or maybe not as bad; he could also be letting them live to avoid attracting centaur attention.
any significant chance that MoR unicorn blood works as advertised in Cannon
I’m not even sure what it did in canon. I only mentioned it as a potential example. But note that even if there are no souls in MoR, magic immortality itself is certainly possible. (I.e., if it resurrected in canon, it probably won’t do that in MoR, but it might prolong life.)
We have already seen a way to bypass the Interdict in Slytherins monster, another way to get around it would make Merlins Opus Magnum quite laughable. But yes, the Chamber of Secrets has still not been discovered and Harry did just run off to a very certain bathroom...
Edit: Ah dammit, forgot the Neville scene at the end. That would have been too good.
If the secret to Merlin’s Opus Magnum is similar to either partial transfiguration or patronus 2.0, then it may not be a problem. Both require special knowledge that isn’t easy to convey or transfer to others. In the case of partial transfiguration, it’s timeless QM and probability graphs; in the case of the patronus, it’s a Long View of the future.
Both are exceptionally rare even in our world; for wizards, much more so. And also as in our world, it’s exceptionally hard to convey those things to others. Add to that the burden of responsibility for that kind of power and you may have a situation where wizards who figure out part of all of the Interdict know better than to tell anyone.
That said, I’m not sure how I feel about Slytherin’s monster being that important. Even if it did have a pile of spells, the question is how many, and of what actual value? It just seems too small scale for Harry.
I get the feeling that there’s something up with the rules of spell creation, and not just that “it’s dangerous for people to try”. Much like potion brewing, I suspect there’s some simple, obvious in retrospect rules which Quirrel knows Harry will grossly abuse once he figures them out.
Although not instant win, beating the interdict is potentially a route to great power fast. I think its a more likely route because its more fuzzy.
The 6 hour limit on turners is a hard rule, there is not a lot of room for subjective interpretation to play with. The partial transfiguration trick works because form and object and the like are fuzzy concepts that don’t map exactly onto anything in the real world. The limit on the transmitting of “sufficiently powerful spells” seems very similar in that its based on an idea without an exact referent. Sufficiently powerful compared to what, compared to a candle? Compared to a gun? Compared to a nuke? Compared to a meteor? Compared to a supernova?
If Harry calibrates powerful based on a supernova and really “gets” how powerful that is, do all spells seem piddling by comparison and pass through the edict unscathed? There’s certainly room to work with here.
Frankly, the only reason that partial transfig does not make Harry insanely overpowered is because of Harry’s weak mana (which will get better as he ages) and the need to avoid transfiguration sickness.
It occurs to me that I’ve seen very little mention of one major dangling plot thread: The Interdict of Merlin. Bypassing the interdict may get Harry sufficient power, without necessarily getting at ‘the source of magic’ or becoming omnipotent.
There’s some precedent for this: partial transfiguration, patronus 2.0, and acorn brewing were all made possible by understanding something others did not. It’s possible that the Interdict is something similar, and that Harry will be able to understand his way through it.
This mechanism appears to have been used in other of Eliezer’s works as well, for example the “Jeffreyssai” stories in the Sequences.
The problem is that “bypassing the Interdict” is not, on its own, useful; it’s only valuable if Harry happens to have written notes on powerful magic spells that are censored by the Interdict. Apparently, there’s a loophole allowing Interdict-restricted material to exist (wizards can keep notes for themselves, implied by chapter 23), but it seems unlikely that Harry would be able to get ahold of much of it. (Possible exception: Bacon’s diary? Quirrell didn’t think Bacon found much of interest, but he could be wrong.)
Related: since Muggle physics can apparently contribute to powerful magics (see: partial transfiguration) would the Interdict apply if Harry ever wrote a physics book? What would the Interdict do if a Muggle happened to accidentally write (presumably as fiction) the details of a powerful magic spell? Can Muggles read Interdict-restricted works?
Prediction: by the end of the story, Harry will somehow have managed to dispell the Interdict of Merlin. Given his opinions on muggle society that gains power with each generation, versus wizard society that loses power with each generation, there is no way Harry is going to let that stand. Given that it was brought about by magic, presumably it can be cancelled by magic, and Harry will find a way.
[regarding nuclear weapons] “worse than the more...recondite...aspects of wizardry” “slightly worse than anything that’s left in these days. nothing like what wiped out atlantis”.
-There’s a very big chance that there are interdicted spells that aren’t quite as bad as the latter, but still a lot more powerfull than a nuke. There’s no way Harry is going to intentionally switch the interdict OFF.
Although...he might try bypassing it with a bit of information theory at a conceptual level, or some mind-altering spells...say, tricking himself into believing he already understands a spell, thereby tricking the interdict into thinking he already has access to that spell. Or maybe even forcing himself to following the directions no matter how stupid they seem. (cough philosopher’s stone cough).
Interesting, I wonder if Imperius helps with following instructions, i.e. if you’re better at following (non-Imperius) instructions after X Imperiuses you to follow Y’s instructions, than if you just wanted to follow Y’s instructions at the same time. There are very probably spells that make you (temporarily) better in terms of dexterity and such. Hell, there’s Felix. If the PS recipe is correct, its difficulty should not be a problem for Harry. (At least if we assume Flamel actually did create one—which we’ve taken on trust until now—which implies it’s within (extreme) human bounds of ability.)
ahem: Felix is off limits in MoR.
“which we’ve taken on trust until now” -it’s a cannon artifact, the (in)famous forbidden corridor is still there, the door can still be unlocked with alohamora, flamel wants his whatever hidden in hogwarts, Quirrlmort can (probably) find it wherever it goes...it’s there. Whether it does EXACTLY what it does in cannon or not, or acts more like the one from Full-Metal Alchemist....is more of an open question, especially since elixir of life itself never makes an on-screen appearance in cannon.
But I’ll give you this, the recipe doesn’t have to be correct, since that’s not in cannon as far as I know.
Yeah, forgot about that, sorry. Still, it would be remarkable if nothing could help you be better at manual tasks, and nobody remarked on it in the text. I mean, hell, at the very least you can use Imperius to make someone practice for a couple of decades.
I was actually thinking there might not be a philosophers’ stone as described. E.g., the recipe could be completely bogus, or maybe the result only transmutes lead to gold. (Potentially interesting point: I can’t think of any example of alchemy in-story that results in something non-liquid.)
Flamel might be (or appear) immortal for any other reason, e.g., he discovered Horcrux 2.0, or he has a secret Unicorn farm, or he possesses people and takes Polyjuice, or he’s not really human, or there’s a conspiracy that makes it seem like Flamel exists just so people don’t try to look for immortality because “they already know” how to get it, etc. I mean, the only “evidence” mentioned for the fact that the PS works is Flamel.
Basically we have a very surprising and useful result for a self-reported self-experiment with a sample size of one, that has not been replicated in hundreds of years despite known attempts by known competent, motivated, and resourceful people provided with (allegedly) clear and complete documentation. Nobody even managed to steal either the stone or the elixir it’s supposed to make. (And IIRC, it’s claimed that Flamel needs to use the elixir repeatedly.)
“Basically we have a very surprising and useful result for a self-reported self-experiment with a sample size of one, that has not been replicated in hundreds of years despite known attempts by known competent, motivated, and resourceful people provided with (allegedly) clear and complete documentation. Nobody even managed to steal either the stone or the elixir it’s supposed to make. (And IIRC, it’s claimed that Flamel needs to use the elixir repeatedly.)”
-well… If it were purely a real-life situation I would agree. but we have priors from...cannon… Oh. Right. it never actually DOES anything onscreen that couldn’t be done by a pretty red(?) rock. There’s still a high chance that Cannon!Stone works as advertised, though...
I shall refer to “the McGuffin”. the McGuffin may or may not be a working philosopher’s stone. lets see.
Quirrelmort has some way of detecting the McGuffin.
Quirrelmort thinks it’s valuable.
Dumbledore REFUSES to hide it outside of hogwarts.
Harry notes that Wizards have obunoculars. I note that wizards think they’re great devices to watch Quidditch from a distance, and might not have thought to look at something CLOSE with them. -conclusion: hm....quite the mixed bag. Quite the mixed bag indeed...
p.s. Do you REALLY think there’s any significant chance that MoR unicorn blood works as advertised in Cannon? I once fantasized about asking a unicorn for a sample of blood in order to totally bypass the downside.
...now that i’m thinking about unicorns, who’s blood Cannon Quirrel drank, I find it rather likely that Quirrelmort’s zombie-mode is the side-effect of drinking unicorn blood, and that it would be worse if he were killing unicorns. Or maybe not as bad; he could also be letting them live to avoid attracting centaur attention.
I’m not even sure what it did in canon. I only mentioned it as a potential example. But note that even if there are no souls in MoR, magic immortality itself is certainly possible. (I.e., if it resurrected in canon, it probably won’t do that in MoR, but it might prolong life.)
We have already seen a way to bypass the Interdict in Slytherins monster, another way to get around it would make Merlins Opus Magnum quite laughable. But yes, the Chamber of Secrets has still not been discovered and Harry did just run off to a very certain bathroom...
Edit: Ah dammit, forgot the Neville scene at the end. That would have been too good.
If the secret to Merlin’s Opus Magnum is similar to either partial transfiguration or patronus 2.0, then it may not be a problem. Both require special knowledge that isn’t easy to convey or transfer to others. In the case of partial transfiguration, it’s timeless QM and probability graphs; in the case of the patronus, it’s a Long View of the future.
Both are exceptionally rare even in our world; for wizards, much more so. And also as in our world, it’s exceptionally hard to convey those things to others. Add to that the burden of responsibility for that kind of power and you may have a situation where wizards who figure out part of all of the Interdict know better than to tell anyone.
That said, I’m not sure how I feel about Slytherin’s monster being that important. Even if it did have a pile of spells, the question is how many, and of what actual value? It just seems too small scale for Harry.
I get the feeling that there’s something up with the rules of spell creation, and not just that “it’s dangerous for people to try”. Much like potion brewing, I suspect there’s some simple, obvious in retrospect rules which Quirrel knows Harry will grossly abuse once he figures them out.
Although not instant win, beating the interdict is potentially a route to great power fast. I think its a more likely route because its more fuzzy.
The 6 hour limit on turners is a hard rule, there is not a lot of room for subjective interpretation to play with. The partial transfiguration trick works because form and object and the like are fuzzy concepts that don’t map exactly onto anything in the real world. The limit on the transmitting of “sufficiently powerful spells” seems very similar in that its based on an idea without an exact referent. Sufficiently powerful compared to what, compared to a candle? Compared to a gun? Compared to a nuke? Compared to a meteor? Compared to a supernova?
If Harry calibrates powerful based on a supernova and really “gets” how powerful that is, do all spells seem piddling by comparison and pass through the edict unscathed? There’s certainly room to work with here.
Frankly, the only reason that partial transfig does not make Harry insanely overpowered is because of Harry’s weak mana (which will get better as he ages) and the need to avoid transfiguration sickness.