> Reasonable norms of good debate suggest relevant counterarguments should be proportional in length and readability to the original argument, which in this case is Rokos compact nine-minute post.
This seems entirely *un*reasonable to me. Some arguments simply can’t be properly made that concisely, and this principle seems to bias us towards finding snappy, simplistic explanations rather than true ones.
Someone else mentioned ‘The Pyramid and the Garden’, but I’m reminded of the sort of related argument about Atlantis in https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/ : sometimes, boring reality and ‘it’s actually just a series of coincidences’ requires a lot more explaining than a neat little conspiracy theory. Not to tar the lab leak hypothesis by calling it a conspiracy theory- while of course it literally is one, it doesn’t deserve to be demeaned by the term’s modern connotation of zany insane-person nonsense- but it is easy to see why ‘these facts seems unlikely to be a coincidence’ might be easier to argue concisely than its rebuttal, and a norm where the person that can state their argument more persuasively in shortform wins doesn’t seem like one that’s going to promote optimal truth-seeking.
The problem with “lab-leak is unlikely, look at this 17-hour debate” is that it is too short an argument, not a too long one. Arguments don’t get substituted by merely referring to them. The expression “the Riemann hypothesis” is not synonymous with the Riemann hypothesis. The former just refers to the latter. You can understand one without understanding the other.
On average, every argument gets more indirect the less accessible it is, and inaccessibility is strongly dependent on length, as well as language, intelligibility, format etc.
It may be that the 17-hour debate cannot be summarized adequately (depending on some standard of adequacy) in a nine-minute post, but a nine-minute post would be much more adequate than “lab-leak is unlikely, look at this 17-hour debate”.
The problem with “lab-leak is unlikely, look at this 17-hour debate” is that it is too short an argument, not a too long one.
It isn’t an argument, it’s a citation.
I don’t think a 17 hour debate is “inaccessible” to someone who is invested in this issue and making extremely strong, potentially very seriously libellous claims without having investigated some of the central arguments on the question at hand.
A foundational text in some academic field might take 17 hours to read, but you would still expect someone to have read it before making a priori wild claims that contradicted the expert consensus of that field very radically. I don’t think you’d take that person seriously at all if they hadn’t, and would in fact consider it very irresponsible (and frankly idiotic) for them to even make the claims until they had.
That’s not to say that this debate should be treated as foundational to the study of this question, exactly, but… well, as I said elsewhere:
This debate has been cited repeatedly in rationalist spaces, by people who were already quite engaged with the topic, familiar with the evidence, and in possession of carefully-formed views, as having been extremely valuable and informative, and having shifted their position significantly.”
I think that makes familiarising yourself with those arguments (whether from the debate or another equivalent-or-better source) a prerequisite for making the kind of strong, confident claims Roko is making. At the moment, he’s making those claims without the information necessary to be anywhere near as confident as he is.
A foundational text in some academic field might take 17 hours to read, but you would still expect someone to have read it before making a priori wild claims that contradicted the expert consensus of that field very radically.
There’s a good reason why the foundational text in an academic field would be a text and not a video. Evaluating arguments is easier to do when they are done via text.
I think that makes familiarising yourself with those arguments (whether from the debate or another equivalent-or-better source)
I don’t think anyone has shown that the debate contains specific arguments that Roko is unfamiliar with.
Evaluating arguments is easier to do when they are done via text.
Isn’t there a transcript? In any case, this seems to be highly subjective, and in my opinion not hugely relevant anyway. To extend the analogy, your expectation of someone’s having read foundational texts before making strong claims would hardly be lessened by the objection that the texts were hard to read.
I don’t think anyone has shown that the debate contains specific arguments that Roko is unfamiliar with.
Do we need to positively show that? As I mentioned, many intelligent, thoughtful people who were already very familiar with this question and its relevant facts updated significantly based on the debate. And Roko certainly hasn’t explicitly addressed all of the arguments therein. Isn’t that enough to suggest that he should at least watch it?
It’s equivalent to watching a season of a TV show- is that really such an onerous requirement for making incredibly strong, potentially libellous claims about a contentious issue with serious real-world ramifications?
If you watch a debate the way you would a TV show where you aren’t critically evaluating everything, that’s not a good basis for forming beliefs about the real world.
Youtube videos tend to encourage you to consume them in that way, but that doesn’t make it a good epistemic practice and that’s part of the reason why scientific debates usually happen in text.
> Reasonable norms of good debate suggest relevant counterarguments should be proportional in length and readability to the original argument, which in this case is Rokos compact nine-minute post.
This seems entirely *un*reasonable to me. Some arguments simply can’t be properly made that concisely, and this principle seems to bias us towards finding snappy, simplistic explanations rather than true ones.
Someone else mentioned ‘The Pyramid and the Garden’, but I’m reminded of the sort of related argument about Atlantis in https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/ : sometimes, boring reality and ‘it’s actually just a series of coincidences’ requires a lot more explaining than a neat little conspiracy theory. Not to tar the lab leak hypothesis by calling it a conspiracy theory- while of course it literally is one, it doesn’t deserve to be demeaned by the term’s modern connotation of zany insane-person nonsense- but it is easy to see why ‘these facts seems unlikely to be a coincidence’ might be easier to argue concisely than its rebuttal, and a norm where the person that can state their argument more persuasively in shortform wins doesn’t seem like one that’s going to promote optimal truth-seeking.
The problem with “lab-leak is unlikely, look at this 17-hour debate” is that it is too short an argument, not a too long one. Arguments don’t get substituted by merely referring to them. The expression “the Riemann hypothesis” is not synonymous with the Riemann hypothesis. The former just refers to the latter. You can understand one without understanding the other.
On average, every argument gets more indirect the less accessible it is, and inaccessibility is strongly dependent on length, as well as language, intelligibility, format etc.
It may be that the 17-hour debate cannot be summarized adequately (depending on some standard of adequacy) in a nine-minute post, but a nine-minute post would be much more adequate than “lab-leak is unlikely, look at this 17-hour debate”.
It isn’t an argument, it’s a citation.
I don’t think a 17 hour debate is “inaccessible” to someone who is invested in this issue and making extremely strong, potentially very seriously libellous claims without having investigated some of the central arguments on the question at hand.
A foundational text in some academic field might take 17 hours to read, but you would still expect someone to have read it before making a priori wild claims that contradicted the expert consensus of that field very radically. I don’t think you’d take that person seriously at all if they hadn’t, and would in fact consider it very irresponsible (and frankly idiotic) for them to even make the claims until they had.
That’s not to say that this debate should be treated as foundational to the study of this question, exactly, but… well, as I said elsewhere:
I think that makes familiarising yourself with those arguments (whether from the debate or another equivalent-or-better source) a prerequisite for making the kind of strong, confident claims Roko is making. At the moment, he’s making those claims without the information necessary to be anywhere near as confident as he is.
There’s a good reason why the foundational text in an academic field would be a text and not a video. Evaluating arguments is easier to do when they are done via text.
I don’t think anyone has shown that the debate contains specific arguments that Roko is unfamiliar with.
See: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZdNyKE5yC4YjXGzfG/a-back-of-the-envelope-calculation-on-how-unlikely-the?commentId=cWCMuMpMQ98gqRB2G
Which to me strongly suggest Roko was unfamiliar with multiple (imo) strong evidence for the zoonosis origin.
Isn’t there a transcript? In any case, this seems to be highly subjective, and in my opinion not hugely relevant anyway. To extend the analogy, your expectation of someone’s having read foundational texts before making strong claims would hardly be lessened by the objection that the texts were hard to read.
Do we need to positively show that? As I mentioned, many intelligent, thoughtful people who were already very familiar with this question and its relevant facts updated significantly based on the debate. And Roko certainly hasn’t explicitly addressed all of the arguments therein. Isn’t that enough to suggest that he should at least watch it?
It’s equivalent to watching a season of a TV show- is that really such an onerous requirement for making incredibly strong, potentially libellous claims about a contentious issue with serious real-world ramifications?
No transcript, but the judges have documents where they outline their reasoning:
Will van Treuren’s doc
Eric Stansifer’s doc
If you watch a debate the way you would a TV show where you aren’t critically evaluating everything, that’s not a good basis for forming beliefs about the real world.
Youtube videos tend to encourage you to consume them in that way, but that doesn’t make it a good epistemic practice and that’s part of the reason why scientific debates usually happen in text.
I watch TV in a pretty focused way where I take things in.
But I wasn’t suggesting you watch it like a TV show; just that’s a similar time commitment (ie not an unreasonable one).