Many LWers are willing to entertain ideas about the existence and possible importance of average group differences in psychological traits. So, maybe LWers are racists. But they’re racists who continually obsess over optimizing their philanthropic contributions to African charities.
There are individuals who comment on LW and who are avowed racists.
There are individuals who comment on LW and who obsess over optimizing their philanthropic contributions to African charities.
I’m not sure these are the same individuals.
Just because there are infinitely many even numbers, and infinitely many primes, does not mean there are infinitely many even primes. Just because the most common given name in the world is Muhammad, and the most common surname is Wang, does not mean that the typical human being is named Muhammad Wang. Just because Brooklyn has a notably unusual number of wild parrots for a northerly place, and a notably unusual number of Hasidim, does not mean that there are any Hasidic parrots in Brooklyn.
In the section you quoted, ‘racist’ seemed to include anyone who entertains ideas about the existence of average group differences in psychological traits. By that criterion I’d bet there are many LWers who fall into the intersection of those categories. I am certainly one of them.
Fair enough, I may have been overgeneralizing from my own experience. I read HBD blogs and effective altruism blogs and I have a monthly donation to GiveWell which I aim to increase as my income rises. I’m surely not the only person for whom this is true but maybe there aren’t that many of us.
Fellow effective altruists! It is your moral duty to familiarize yourselves with biological realities, many of which are relevant to deciding the morally optimal course of action. For example, “findings from twin studies yield heritability estimates of 0.50 for prosocial behaviours like empathy, cooperativeness and altruism”. (source) Please take this into account when deciding whether to have children.
Fellow HBDers! It is your moral duty to take up the white man’s burden and donate to GiveWell today. If giving money directly to poor people in Kenya doesn’t seem paternalistic enough then go for the deworming options.
Actually, that was pretty good; pithy and introduces actual object-level issues to debate rather than abstract ideological concerns.
Please take this into account when deciding whether to have children.
This is pretty important actually; you see a lot of EA talk around here which basically assumes children are fungible (“If I don’t have any kids, but spend the money to save n African kids then I’m in the clear!”) without taking into account that those n kids will likely need > 2n kids-worth of aid themselves in a few decades and you’ve squandered the human capital which would otherwise be able to support them.
If effective altruists can justify having a well paying full-time job for charity, why not raising morally-upright intelligent kids to be successful as well? It’s a lot tougher to do emotionally and financially, but comparing one-time payouts to investments with reliable returns seems like a no-brainer.
Fellow HBDers! It is your moral duty to take up the white man’s burden and donate to GiveWell today. If giving money directly to poor people in Kenya doesn’t seem paternalistic enough then go for the deworming options.
You’d probably do better with a hook about condom distribution / vaccination; they’re still very cheap ways to save a lot of lives, but also avoid compounding the population issues there by slightly reducing overall fertility. It doesn’t make sense to “help” in a way which creates even more people in need of help further down the line unless you’re actively aiming to enforce dependency.
Direct monetary handouts are a bad idea even ignoring time preference issues, simply because even relatively well-governed African countries like Kenya are institutionally corrupt to a degree it is difficult to picture without going there. A friend of mine just got back from an anthropological study in East Africa and it’s really hard to believe. Giving aid in GM seed grains (thinking more Borlaug than Monsanto here) mosquito nets or condoms makes a lot more sense than sending cash electronics or herd animals (yup, an actual thing).
We probably agree on a lot but I’d encourage you to check out GiveWell’s report on GiveDirectly. If there are particular fertility-affecting charities you’d like to recommend I’m happy to listen.
No. A person may donate heavily to cure rare diseases in cute puppies without believing that puppies should have the vote.
It wasn’t my point that the racists and the donors are non-overlapping, though — rather that they are not necessarily overlapping, and that the overlap — if it exists — should not be taken as defining the whole population. (Which is what the “But they’re racists who …” statement does.)
There are probably people named Muhammad Wang, after all; just not very many of them.
(I don’t think there are any Hasidic parrots, though.)
Not necessarily, and in the case of “avowed racists of Less Wrong” almost certainly not. The “biological realism” concept is that there are genetic and physiological differences split so sharply along racial lines (“carves reality at its joints”) that it is correct to say that all races are not born equal. Proponents of this concept would claim it is obviously true, and they would also be called racists. These people could donate heavily to African charities out of sympathy for what is, in their eyes, the “bad luck” to be born a certain race, and it would be consistent.
(I believe that biological realism is the main form of racism amongst LW posters, but I have nothing to back this assertion up except that I recall seeing it discussed)
but of sympathy for what is, in their eyes, the “bad luck” to be born a certain race
Or more to the point, sympathy for people with greater challenges than others, and finding that African charities, by targeting Africans, are more likely to target people with those challenges.
It depends on the definition of “racist” that you use. Anyone who self-identifies as “racist” is probably in a hateful enough place that the idea of saving African children from malaria doesn’t even cross their mind as a possibility. On the other hand, if you define racism as “any idea held by white people that PoC disapprove of”, well, most white folks are racist.
Was that the post you intended to link? I am glad to have discovered that in Finland, you get a top hat and a sword when you are awarded a Ph.D., but I see nothing boneheaded in the comments.
I agree with Romeo Steven’s comment that the issues seem orthogonal. As an example, (caveat YMMV), Steve Sailer believes in HBD. However, he frequently cites lower growth in african american wages as a reason to shut the american borders down to low skilled workers.
However, in today’s environment, I’m not sure how many top-rated charities are HBD believing. A neoreactionary charity aiming at improving Africa might do many things differently. And being a relatively new ideology, most policies would not have substantial support of data. Hence, atleast in the current scenario, you would not find many people that were HBD aware and contributed greatly to african charities. However, it is not intellectually inconsistent.
I agree with Romeo Steven’s comment that the issues seem orthogonal. As an example, (caveat YMMV), Steve Sailer believes in HBD. However, he frequently cites lower growth in african american wages as a reason to shut the american borders down to low skilled workers.
However, in today’s environment, I’m not sure how many top-rated charities are HBD believing. A neoreactionary charity aiming at improving Africa might do many things differently. And being a relatively new ideology, most policies would not have substantial support of data. Hence, atleast in the current scenario, you would not find many people that were HBD aware and contributed greatly to african charities. However, it is not intellectually inconsistent.
If you can definitively prove “the existence and possible importance of average group differences in psychological traits”, then the true and rational position to take would be racism. Now, as far as I know or have researched, no conclusive arguments have been made for accepting racism. However, when you say ‘racist’, it conjures up images like this:
(EDIT: this picture was embedded; it’s now linked instead)
I didn’t downvote you, but consider the impact this picture would have on someone quickly looking at this post to see if they want to participate in LW. Are you being ironic or something?
Emotionally salient stories are the stuff scope insensitivity is made of. I point this out not because I disagree with you, I believe it is more important to notice this stuff WRT things you agree with than things you disagree with.
There are individuals who comment on LW and who are avowed racists.
There are individuals who comment on LW and who obsess over optimizing their philanthropic contributions to African charities.
I’m not sure these are the same individuals.
Just because there are infinitely many even numbers, and infinitely many primes, does not mean there are infinitely many even primes. Just because the most common given name in the world is Muhammad, and the most common surname is Wang, does not mean that the typical human being is named Muhammad Wang. Just because Brooklyn has a notably unusual number of wild parrots for a northerly place, and a notably unusual number of Hasidim, does not mean that there are any Hasidic parrots in Brooklyn.
In the section you quoted, ‘racist’ seemed to include anyone who entertains ideas about the existence of average group differences in psychological traits. By that criterion I’d bet there are many LWers who fall into the intersection of those categories. I am certainly one of them.
Fair enough, I may have been overgeneralizing from my own experience. I read HBD blogs and effective altruism blogs and I have a monthly donation to GiveWell which I aim to increase as my income rises. I’m surely not the only person for whom this is true but maybe there aren’t that many of us.
Would it actually be intellectually inconsistent if someone was both racist and donated heavily to African charities? Honest question.
“there are differences that are demarcated by ethnicity” and “it sucks when people suffer” seem orthogonal to me.
Let me have a go at this.
Fellow effective altruists! It is your moral duty to familiarize yourselves with biological realities, many of which are relevant to deciding the morally optimal course of action. For example, “findings from twin studies yield heritability estimates of 0.50 for prosocial behaviours like empathy, cooperativeness and altruism”. (source) Please take this into account when deciding whether to have children.
Fellow HBDers! It is your moral duty to take up the white man’s burden and donate to GiveWell today. If giving money directly to poor people in Kenya doesn’t seem paternalistic enough then go for the deworming options.
Have I successfully alienated everyone yet?
Actually, that was pretty good; pithy and introduces actual object-level issues to debate rather than abstract ideological concerns.
This is pretty important actually; you see a lot of EA talk around here which basically assumes children are fungible (“If I don’t have any kids, but spend the money to save n African kids then I’m in the clear!”) without taking into account that those n kids will likely need > 2n kids-worth of aid themselves in a few decades and you’ve squandered the human capital which would otherwise be able to support them.
If effective altruists can justify having a well paying full-time job for charity, why not raising morally-upright intelligent kids to be successful as well? It’s a lot tougher to do emotionally and financially, but comparing one-time payouts to investments with reliable returns seems like a no-brainer.
You’d probably do better with a hook about condom distribution / vaccination; they’re still very cheap ways to save a lot of lives, but also avoid compounding the population issues there by slightly reducing overall fertility. It doesn’t make sense to “help” in a way which creates even more people in need of help further down the line unless you’re actively aiming to enforce dependency.
Direct monetary handouts are a bad idea even ignoring time preference issues, simply because even relatively well-governed African countries like Kenya are institutionally corrupt to a degree it is difficult to picture without going there. A friend of mine just got back from an anthropological study in East Africa and it’s really hard to believe. Giving aid in GM seed grains (thinking more Borlaug than Monsanto here) mosquito nets or condoms makes a lot more sense than sending cash electronics or herd animals (yup, an actual thing).
We probably agree on a lot but I’d encourage you to check out GiveWell’s report on GiveDirectly. If there are particular fertility-affecting charities you’d like to recommend I’m happy to listen.
Of course! Racism is evil and charity is good! If you try to mix them you get an explosion.
No. A person may donate heavily to cure rare diseases in cute puppies without believing that puppies should have the vote.
It wasn’t my point that the racists and the donors are non-overlapping, though — rather that they are not necessarily overlapping, and that the overlap — if it exists — should not be taken as defining the whole population. (Which is what the “But they’re racists who …” statement does.)
There are probably people named Muhammad Wang, after all; just not very many of them.
(I don’t think there are any Hasidic parrots, though.)
Not necessarily, and in the case of “avowed racists of Less Wrong” almost certainly not. The “biological realism” concept is that there are genetic and physiological differences split so sharply along racial lines (“carves reality at its joints”) that it is correct to say that all races are not born equal. Proponents of this concept would claim it is obviously true, and they would also be called racists. These people could donate heavily to African charities out of sympathy for what is, in their eyes, the “bad luck” to be born a certain race, and it would be consistent.
(I believe that biological realism is the main form of racism amongst LW posters, but I have nothing to back this assertion up except that I recall seeing it discussed)
Or more to the point, sympathy for people with greater challenges than others, and finding that African charities, by targeting Africans, are more likely to target people with those challenges.
Depends on the type of racist.
It depends on the definition of “racist” that you use. Anyone who self-identifies as “racist” is probably in a hateful enough place that the idea of saving African children from malaria doesn’t even cross their mind as a possibility. On the other hand, if you define racism as “any idea held by white people that PoC disapprove of”, well, most white folks are racist.
Actually, it’s some PoC. SJs claim to speak for all of a group, but actually, they don’t.
Read the comments to this post and weep.
Was that the post you intended to link? I am glad to have discovered that in Finland, you get a top hat and a sword when you are awarded a Ph.D., but I see nothing boneheaded in the comments.
Look at Ross Yesman’s comment and the replies to it.
Storm in an eggcup.
That was my point: someone crying sexism over something not a single woman in the conversation is bothered by.
I agree with Romeo Steven’s comment that the issues seem orthogonal. As an example, (caveat YMMV), Steve Sailer believes in HBD. However, he frequently cites lower growth in african american wages as a reason to shut the american borders down to low skilled workers.
However, in today’s environment, I’m not sure how many top-rated charities are HBD believing. A neoreactionary charity aiming at improving Africa might do many things differently. And being a relatively new ideology, most policies would not have substantial support of data. Hence, atleast in the current scenario, you would not find many people that were HBD aware and contributed greatly to african charities. However, it is not intellectually inconsistent.
I agree with Romeo Steven’s comment that the issues seem orthogonal. As an example, (caveat YMMV), Steve Sailer believes in HBD. However, he frequently cites lower growth in african american wages as a reason to shut the american borders down to low skilled workers.
However, in today’s environment, I’m not sure how many top-rated charities are HBD believing. A neoreactionary charity aiming at improving Africa might do many things differently. And being a relatively new ideology, most policies would not have substantial support of data. Hence, atleast in the current scenario, you would not find many people that were HBD aware and contributed greatly to african charities. However, it is not intellectually inconsistent.
That definition of ‘racist’ is what Yvain calls a non-central fallacy: http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_noncentral_fallacy_the_worst_argument_in_the/
If you can definitively prove “the existence and possible importance of average group differences in psychological traits”, then the true and rational position to take would be racism. Now, as far as I know or have researched, no conclusive arguments have been made for accepting racism. However, when you say ‘racist’, it conjures up images like this:
(EDIT: this picture was embedded; it’s now linked instead)
http://motherboard-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/content-images/article/ironically-a-mans-face-can-tell-you-if-hes-likely-to-act-like-a-racist/048156b6350757d5b198262bdfb53d92_vice_630x420.jpg
I didn’t downvote you, but consider the impact this picture would have on someone quickly looking at this post to see if they want to participate in LW. Are you being ironic or something?
I see. I didn’t consider that at all; that’s a good point. I removed the picture.
This picture of a lynching is closer to my “why I think racism is bad” image.
Emotionally salient stories are the stuff scope insensitivity is made of. I point this out not because I disagree with you, I believe it is more important to notice this stuff WRT things you agree with than things you disagree with.
Didn’t downvote you, but I’m willing to bet it was because you embedded an image rather than linking it.