I do think that street harassmeent is a serious issue. I however only have anedcotal reports. Can you point me to some statistics that describe the situation on a more general level?
Is it mainly an issue of the big cities where people don’t know each other? How do different countries compare against each other? How many cases of street harassment does the average woman experience per year?
Well, ours have produced data that’s useful at least for questions relating to LW. So I’m not going to say it’s impossible. But if you’re trying to answer a political question...
If you want data to understand whether the average woman who participate on Lesswrong are subject to substantial sexual harrasment the lesswrong data is okay. To the extend that we think about modifying how we talk about certain issues on Lesswrong that’s the demographic that we care about.
Having the question in the lesswrong data set also allows us to see whether the answer to the question correlates with other answers on the survey.
To the extend that we think about modifying how we talk about certain issues on Lesswrong that’s the demographic that we care about.
When we talk about these things, it’s most often in the context of potentially driving away demographics whose representatives might offer underrepresented insights or perspectives. Sampling from a set self-selected to not have been driven away yet isn’t going to give us the data we want.
When that’s not the context, we’re usually talking about issues depending on the general population, and the pitfalls of using LW data for that are obvious.
When that’s not the context, we’re usually talking about issues relevant to the general population, and the pitfalls of using LW data for that are obvious.
I don’t think we only care about the general population. We care about the people with whom we are interacting on a daily basis. We have a bunch of people in this community who want spend time with rational friends instead of spending time with an average member of society.
Even if we are not intending with rational people we are still unlikely to interact with the average person.
Most woman I meet, I meet during Salsa dancing. That activity selects for woman who are okay with strangers physically touching them during Salsa dancing.
Why? The survey allows for finding correlations with existing questions. It means that you get answers to questions such as whether being harrased correlates with IQ for free.
Those answers also tend to be more likely to generalize to the general population than the absolute values of the amount of people who report being harrased.
It seems to me that a good survey on street harassment would be fairly long and the survey is already long enough. Still, if there’s still interest when the next survey is being discussed, it’s a possible topic. Prediction
Just defining harassment is difficult.
IQ (especially at LW levels) doesn’t strike me as likely to give much information. IQ might correlate with spending time in better neighborhoods, or with being more distracted (less likely to notice minor harassment? more likely to get harassed by men who don’t like being ignored) or with being less distracted (more likely to notice harassment).
I’d like more research on the subject—I suspect that local culture makes a huge difference. I also realize that discussions of street harassment are more likely to attract women who’ve been harassed.
IQ is just an example. We also have questions about moral beliefs. We have questions about how likely you find various risks.
At this stage the results wouldn’t be conclusive but they would increase the grasp I would have on the issue. Having a question on the LW survey wouldn’t give the same level of detail as a in depth study, but it would be an improvement.
I’d like more research on the subject—I suspect that local culture makes a huge difference.
I think the local culture question is one of the questions that interests me most.
Should I expect that this is an issue for the woman I meet in daily life, given that I live in Germany? Women like my sister don’t bring the issue up, even in discussions about the value of feminism.
I know a bunch of women through the internet who report being troubled by street harassment and those don’t live in Germany. Given the reports of those woman, I do think that the issue is serious.
The chance of a 4Chan raid is the least of your worries, really. I don’t know where the links in the ancestor were posted, but you could end up with anything from bad—a bunch of random demographic filters that are next to impossible to control for—to terrible, roughly the equivalent of surveying a Young Republicans meeting about Barack Obama’s economic policy. Except ten percent of the attendees are only there for kicks and will answer every question with “fish”.
The chance of a 4Chan raid is the least of your worries, really.
Depends on what you are worried about, really :-/ And I don’t think it will be a raid, just, y’know, a field trip. The 4chan people are a helpful crowd and would love to leave lots of responses to the survey...
The survey says: “Nearly 95 percent of female respondents were honked at one or more times and 40 percent said they are honked at as frequently as monthly.”
This survey raises the question of what distinguishes those 5% of woman who were never honked at. Is it something like physical attractiveness? Is it about the locating at which the woman is living? Walking around with a confident posture?
If one considers this a serious issue than I would expect that someone has data that answers the question.
If I read about honking, it also not clear how seriously to take it. Sure it’s not fun if someone honks at you, but it’s not a big deal.
Then there are “sexist comments”. If good deconstructivist can label a lot of comments as sexist. You could label the act of open a door and saying: “After the lady.” as a sexist comment. I would where I now what the terms means.
It wouldn’t surprise me if some honks at women aren’t noticed by the woman they’re directed towards, and some honks are taken to be harassment that are directed at someone else.
Yes. But given that there are woman studies departments at universities and this seems to be a topic they ought to care about, I would expect at least some of those academics do serious work and running good surveys.
The key term is “useful”. They produce some data, but it’s likely to be misleading, primarily because of self-selection bias. So, no, you can NOT conclude that “there’s a good bit of street harassment, and it’s fairly frequent” on the basis of putting up a survey on a web page and keeping it there for a month or two.
Street harassment takes some of the fun out of life.
Getting rape and murder threats on line really does distress and distract people, and it seems to be much more likely to happen to women.
I do think that street harassmeent is a serious issue. I however only have anedcotal reports. Can you point me to some statistics that describe the situation on a more general level?
Is it mainly an issue of the big cities where people don’t know each other? How do different countries compare against each other? How many cases of street harassment does the average woman experience per year?
The founder of an anti-street-harassment website conducted “two informal, anonymous online surveys”.
“Informal, anonymous online surveys” do not produce useful data.
Well, ours have produced data that’s useful at least for questions relating to LW. So I’m not going to say it’s impossible. But if you’re trying to answer a political question...
Perhaps we should add questions that measure street harassment to the next Lesswrong survey?
We’re no less demographically skewed than your average feminist site. More, probably.
Skrewing depends on the purpose of your data.
If you want data to understand whether the average woman who participate on Lesswrong are subject to substantial sexual harrasment the lesswrong data is okay. To the extend that we think about modifying how we talk about certain issues on Lesswrong that’s the demographic that we care about.
Having the question in the lesswrong data set also allows us to see whether the answer to the question correlates with other answers on the survey.
When we talk about these things, it’s most often in the context of potentially driving away demographics whose representatives might offer underrepresented insights or perspectives. Sampling from a set self-selected to not have been driven away yet isn’t going to give us the data we want.
When that’s not the context, we’re usually talking about issues depending on the general population, and the pitfalls of using LW data for that are obvious.
I don’t think we only care about the general population. We care about the people with whom we are interacting on a daily basis. We have a bunch of people in this community who want spend time with rational friends instead of spending time with an average member of society.
Even if we are not intending with rational people we are still unlikely to interact with the average person. Most woman I meet, I meet during Salsa dancing. That activity selects for woman who are okay with strangers physically touching them during Salsa dancing.
I don’t think it belongs in the survey, but it might be worth doing as a separate project.
Why? The survey allows for finding correlations with existing questions. It means that you get answers to questions such as whether being harrased correlates with IQ for free.
Those answers also tend to be more likely to generalize to the general population than the absolute values of the amount of people who report being harrased.
It seems to me that a good survey on street harassment would be fairly long and the survey is already long enough. Still, if there’s still interest when the next survey is being discussed, it’s a possible topic. Prediction
Just defining harassment is difficult.
IQ (especially at LW levels) doesn’t strike me as likely to give much information. IQ might correlate with spending time in better neighborhoods, or with being more distracted (less likely to notice minor harassment? more likely to get harassed by men who don’t like being ignored) or with being less distracted (more likely to notice harassment).
I’d like more research on the subject—I suspect that local culture makes a huge difference. I also realize that discussions of street harassment are more likely to attract women who’ve been harassed.
IQ is just an example. We also have questions about moral beliefs. We have questions about how likely you find various risks.
At this stage the results wouldn’t be conclusive but they would increase the grasp I would have on the issue. Having a question on the LW survey wouldn’t give the same level of detail as a in depth study, but it would be an improvement.
I think the local culture question is one of the questions that interests me most. Should I expect that this is an issue for the woman I meet in daily life, given that I live in Germany? Women like my sister don’t bring the issue up, even in discussions about the value of feminism.
I know a bunch of women through the internet who report being troubled by street harassment and those don’t live in Germany. Given the reports of those woman, I do think that the issue is serious.
A fair point. But then, imagine 4chan becoming interested in an online anonymous survey about sexual harassment… X-D
The chance of a 4Chan raid is the least of your worries, really. I don’t know where the links in the ancestor were posted, but you could end up with anything from bad—a bunch of random demographic filters that are next to impossible to control for—to terrible, roughly the equivalent of surveying a Young Republicans meeting about Barack Obama’s economic policy. Except ten percent of the attendees are only there for kicks and will answer every question with “fish”.
Depends on what you are worried about, really :-/ And I don’t think it will be a raid, just, y’know, a field trip. The 4chan people are a helpful crowd and would love to leave lots of responses to the survey...
They produce at least a little data. This one is admittedly filtered in a bunch of ways, both by internet access and interest in street harassment.
Still, it at least implies that there’s a good bit of street harassment, and it’s fairly frequent but not constant.
The survey says: “Nearly 95 percent of female respondents were honked at one or more times and 40 percent said they are honked at as frequently as monthly.”
This survey raises the question of what distinguishes those 5% of woman who were never honked at. Is it something like physical attractiveness? Is it about the locating at which the woman is living? Walking around with a confident posture?
If one considers this a serious issue than I would expect that someone has data that answers the question.
If I read about honking, it also not clear how seriously to take it. Sure it’s not fun if someone honks at you, but it’s not a big deal.
Then there are “sexist comments”. If good deconstructivist can label a lot of comments as sexist. You could label the act of open a door and saying: “After the lady.” as a sexist comment. I would where I now what the terms means.
It wouldn’t surprise me if some honks at women aren’t noticed by the woman they’re directed towards, and some honks are taken to be harassment that are directed at someone else.
It would take some work to design a good survey.
Yes. But given that there are woman studies departments at universities and this seems to be a topic they ought to care about, I would expect at least some of those academics do serious work and running good surveys.
The key term is “useful”. They produce some data, but it’s likely to be misleading, primarily because of self-selection bias. So, no, you can NOT conclude that “there’s a good bit of street harassment, and it’s fairly frequent” on the basis of putting up a survey on a web page and keeping it there for a month or two.