It is sometimes possible to avoid this failure mode, but imo basically only if the conversations are kept highly academic and avoiding of any hot-button issues (e.g. as in some online AI safety discussions, though not all). I think this is basically impossible for politics
I disagree, and think LW can actually do ok, and probably even better with some additional safeguards around political discussions. You weren’t around yet when we had the big 2009 political debate that I referenced in the OP, but I think that one worked out pretty well in the end. And I note that (at least from my perspective) a lot of progress in that debate was made online as opposed to in person, even though presumably many parallel offline discussions were also happening.
so I suspect that not having the ability to talk about politics online won’t be much of a problem (and might even be quite helpful, since I suspect it would overall raise the level of political discourse).
Do you think just talking about politics in person is good enough for making enough intellectual progress and disseminating that widely enough to eventually solve the political problems around AI safety and x-risks? Even if I didn’t think there’s an efficiency hit relative to current ways of discussing politics online, I would be quite worried about that and trying to find ways to move beyond just talking in person...
I disagree, and think LW can actually do ok, and probably even better with some additional safeguards around political discussions. You weren’t around yet when we had the big 2009 political debate that I referenced in the OP, but I think that one worked out pretty well in the end.
Do you think having that debate online was something that needed to happen for AI safety/x-risk? Do you think it benefited AI safety at all? I’m genuinely curious. My bet would be the opposite—that it caused AI safety to be more associated with political drama that helped further taint it.
I think it was bad in the short term (it was at least a distraction, and maybe tainted AI safety by association although I don’t have any personal knowledge of that), but probably good in the long run, because it gave people a good understanding of one political phenomenon (i.e., the giving and taking of offense) which let them better navigate similar situations in the future. In other words, if the debate hadn’t happened online and the resulting understanding widely propagated through this community, there probably would have been more political drama over time because people wouldn’t have had a good understanding of the how and why of avoiding offense.
But I do agree that “taint by association” is a big problem going forward, and I’m not sure what to do about that yet. By mentioning the 2009 debate I was mainly trying to establish that if that problem could be solved or ameliorated to a large degree, then online political discussions seem to be worth having because they can be pretty productive.
I disagree, and think LW can actually do ok, and probably even better with some additional safeguards around political discussions. You weren’t around yet when we had the big 2009 political debate that I referenced in the OP, but I think that one worked out pretty well in the end. And I note that (at least from my perspective) a lot of progress in that debate was made online as opposed to in person, even though presumably many parallel offline discussions were also happening.
Do you think just talking about politics in person is good enough for making enough intellectual progress and disseminating that widely enough to eventually solve the political problems around AI safety and x-risks? Even if I didn’t think there’s an efficiency hit relative to current ways of discussing politics online, I would be quite worried about that and trying to find ways to move beyond just talking in person...
Do you think having that debate online was something that needed to happen for AI safety/x-risk? Do you think it benefited AI safety at all? I’m genuinely curious. My bet would be the opposite—that it caused AI safety to be more associated with political drama that helped further taint it.
I think it was bad in the short term (it was at least a distraction, and maybe tainted AI safety by association although I don’t have any personal knowledge of that), but probably good in the long run, because it gave people a good understanding of one political phenomenon (i.e., the giving and taking of offense) which let them better navigate similar situations in the future. In other words, if the debate hadn’t happened online and the resulting understanding widely propagated through this community, there probably would have been more political drama over time because people wouldn’t have had a good understanding of the how and why of avoiding offense.
But I do agree that “taint by association” is a big problem going forward, and I’m not sure what to do about that yet. By mentioning the 2009 debate I was mainly trying to establish that if that problem could be solved or ameliorated to a large degree, then online political discussions seem to be worth having because they can be pretty productive.
“Free Speech and Triskaidekaphobic Calculators: A Reply to Hubinger on the Relevance of Public Online Discussion to Existential Risk”
What safeguards?