By “via rationality” I assume you mean “via logical argument or sound science”, which is an absurd substitution. Rationalists should win. The Dark Arts therefore are a type of instrumental rationality. That said, I still disagree, at least for some irrational people (let’s roughly say anyone I could convince to eating a food that gives them a stomachache).
They can be convinced they should study [instrumental] rationality, it just requires you present unreasonably large amounts of evidence and don’t use logical inference or experiments. (And when I say unreasonably large, that’s for people in college studying science. For merely average twenty-somethings, you may need to beat them over the head with solid bricks of evidence.)
Caveat: I do not often interact with allegedly common people who don’t meet the minimum bar of adjusting expectations based on (sufficient) observation, so this comment does not apply to such persons. It is still a useful comment.
I.e. look, I used this thingy called rationality and I made/saved thousands of dollars, got a boyfriend, and fixed significant mental problems. Seemed to work for me okay. You need to go REALLY overkill on the evidence for non-science folks though. Again, beat them over the head with it. Make it something that will help them personally, too.
I’ve found it useful to get people to agree (not verbally and aloud, though that’s an interesting experiment) that whatever mysterious method I used to I do that, it would be a good thing to learn, BEFORE I revealed that the answer is something weird or “educational” sounding. This second half is only slightly dark-artsy (consistency bias).
No, by via rationality, I mean via rationality. You cannot use the rational part of their brain to convince them that it is good to be rational, because the rational part of them already knows that, it’s just not in charge.
Convincing them, through the rational part of themselves, that eating a certain food gives them stomachache, is often easy. But that’s a completely different problem, with no real relation to the problem I was talking about.
So, let’s call the thing I’m talking about “winning”. It is EXTREMELY helpful although not logically necessary to think winning is a good idea in order to win. I’m talking about how to convince people of that helpful step, so they can, next, learn how to win, and finally, apply the knowledge and win.
Either you’re talking about a rationality that doesn’t consist of winning, or I’m hearing:
“You cannot use the ‘winning’ part of their brain to convince them that it is good to win, because the ‘winning’ part of them already knows that, it’s just not in charge.” Why on earth should I restrict myself to some arbitrary ‘winning’ part of their brain, if such a thing existed, to convince them that it’s good to win? That sounds silly.
That is in fact what I’m saying. It’s rational to use the dark arts to convince people to be rational, and irrational to try and use rationality to try and persuade people to be rational.
Yes it would be silly (ie. irrational) to think otherwise. However many otherwise rational people do think silly things.
By “via rationality” I assume you mean “via logical argument or sound science”, which is an absurd substitution. Rationalists should win. The Dark Arts therefore are a type of instrumental rationality. That said, I still disagree, at least for some irrational people (let’s roughly say anyone I could convince to eating a food that gives them a stomachache).
They can be convinced they should study [instrumental] rationality, it just requires you present unreasonably large amounts of evidence and don’t use logical inference or experiments. (And when I say unreasonably large, that’s for people in college studying science. For merely average twenty-somethings, you may need to beat them over the head with solid bricks of evidence.) Caveat: I do not often interact with allegedly common people who don’t meet the minimum bar of adjusting expectations based on (sufficient) observation, so this comment does not apply to such persons. It is still a useful comment.
I.e. look, I used this thingy called rationality and I made/saved thousands of dollars, got a boyfriend, and fixed significant mental problems. Seemed to work for me okay. You need to go REALLY overkill on the evidence for non-science folks though. Again, beat them over the head with it. Make it something that will help them personally, too. I’ve found it useful to get people to agree (not verbally and aloud, though that’s an interesting experiment) that whatever mysterious method I used to I do that, it would be a good thing to learn, BEFORE I revealed that the answer is something weird or “educational” sounding. This second half is only slightly dark-artsy (consistency bias).
No, by via rationality, I mean via rationality. You cannot use the rational part of their brain to convince them that it is good to be rational, because the rational part of them already knows that, it’s just not in charge.
Convincing them, through the rational part of themselves, that eating a certain food gives them stomachache, is often easy. But that’s a completely different problem, with no real relation to the problem I was talking about.
So, let’s call the thing I’m talking about “winning”. It is EXTREMELY helpful although not logically necessary to think winning is a good idea in order to win. I’m talking about how to convince people of that helpful step, so they can, next, learn how to win, and finally, apply the knowledge and win.
Either you’re talking about a rationality that doesn’t consist of winning, or I’m hearing: “You cannot use the ‘winning’ part of their brain to convince them that it is good to win, because the ‘winning’ part of them already knows that, it’s just not in charge.” Why on earth should I restrict myself to some arbitrary ‘winning’ part of their brain, if such a thing existed, to convince them that it’s good to win? That sounds silly.
Please let me know if I even make sense.
That is in fact what I’m saying. It’s rational to use the dark arts to convince people to be rational, and irrational to try and use rationality to try and persuade people to be rational.
Yes it would be silly (ie. irrational) to think otherwise. However many otherwise rational people do think silly things.