We both care a lot about certain policies and really want to change the other’s mind, but whenever we try, it just ends in frustration. I’ve spent a lot of time wondering why our arguments are so unproductive.
I like your list, but I think there’s an underlying issue you need to address: what does it mean for an argument to be productive? I think this is related to
really want to change the other’s mind
Which is very zero-sum, and indicates that to the extent a discussion is productive for one, it’s counter-productive for the other. I recommend NOT HAVING those arguments. If you’re going in with goals of understanding their position, changing your own mind, or better modeling the universe (and those in it), then you might actually be productive. This works even if your debate partner is trying to change your mind (though he or she may not feel productive, that’s their lookout).
Which is very zero-sum, and indicates that to the extent a discussion is productive for one, it’s counter-productive for the other. I recommend NOT HAVING those arguments. If you’re going in with goals of understanding their position, changing your own mind, or better modeling the universe (and those in it), then you might actually be productive.
Not quite. If my goal is to change your mind and I succeed, you don’t lose and therefore it’s not zero-sum.. If I succeed it’s probably because I’m right, or at least in your estimation I seem more likely right than your old position was. This holds true even if you went into it really wanting to change my mind as well—it would just mean that you’d have had to change your mind on whether that was a good goal once you started seeing that I might be right.
The real problem is going in not wanting to be convinced. If you do that, and keep attachment to your belief that you’re right, then you’re adding a negative penalty to a win condition that makes it hard to get to. So long as you go in willing and happy to be convinced, you can productively go in with the main goal being to change their mind if you expect that to be more likely than them having something to say which could change your mind. In cases where you don’t already understand their position, then this comes down to the same thing you say where you work towards goals like “understanding their position” and “changing your own mind”, but when you think you already get their side then putting that to the test and seeing if you can change their mind is a very valid goal. You just come at it in a very different way when you’re open to their viewpoints than when you’re not.
Changing someone’s mind could be useful – it all depends on the relevant beliefs. But, given the low probability and relatively high costs, it’s probably better not having arguments with that chief purpose.
I like your list, but I think there’s an underlying issue you need to address: what does it mean for an argument to be productive? I think this is related to
Which is very zero-sum, and indicates that to the extent a discussion is productive for one, it’s counter-productive for the other. I recommend NOT HAVING those arguments. If you’re going in with goals of understanding their position, changing your own mind, or better modeling the universe (and those in it), then you might actually be productive. This works even if your debate partner is trying to change your mind (though he or she may not feel productive, that’s their lookout).
Not quite. If my goal is to change your mind and I succeed, you don’t lose and therefore it’s not zero-sum.. If I succeed it’s probably because I’m right, or at least in your estimation I seem more likely right than your old position was. This holds true even if you went into it really wanting to change my mind as well—it would just mean that you’d have had to change your mind on whether that was a good goal once you started seeing that I might be right.
The real problem is going in not wanting to be convinced. If you do that, and keep attachment to your belief that you’re right, then you’re adding a negative penalty to a win condition that makes it hard to get to. So long as you go in willing and happy to be convinced, you can productively go in with the main goal being to change their mind if you expect that to be more likely than them having something to say which could change your mind. In cases where you don’t already understand their position, then this comes down to the same thing you say where you work towards goals like “understanding their position” and “changing your own mind”, but when you think you already get their side then putting that to the test and seeing if you can change their mind is a very valid goal. You just come at it in a very different way when you’re open to their viewpoints than when you’re not.
Changing someone’s mind could be useful – it all depends on the relevant beliefs. But, given the low probability and relatively high costs, it’s probably better not having arguments with that chief purpose.