No, natural selection doesn’t have a mind, and DOESN’T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING.
We care. Natural selection made us to care. But natural selection itself doesn’t give a damn. Thou Shalt Not Anthropomorphize Natural Selection.
Now you’re just being obtuse. Talk about what natural selection “cares about” is obviously nonliteral and has an obvious meaning. To say that natural selection “cares about” A and does not “care about” B simply means that A, and not B, is a factor in natural selection.
We should redefine “harm” to mean something different than people think when they talk about “harm”, because natural selection intended “harm” to mean something else,
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that the things that we think of as harms (and I listed a few as examples) actually do interfere with reproduction (with obvious but completely understandable exceptions, such as when they happen to people who have already lost their ability to reproduce), whether or not we are aware of this fact or not. It is not a definition. It is a factual claim about the actual things we consider to be harms.
and when our human intuitions come in conflict with natural selection’s “intent” we must obediently bow to our creator’s intent.
No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying that we can be wrong about whether something that looks like a harm, is a harm. It’s certainly possible. Oh, come on, you have got to admit that it is possible to be wrong about whether someone is harmed.
But please not that I also asserted my confidence that drug addicts really are being harmed. Why am I confident? Because while I accept the theoretical possibility of being wrong, I don’t think I actually am wrong. I trust my perception on this matter. When I look at the photographs of meth heads, I have great confidence that they are harmed by their use of the drug. We can in principle be wrong about whether someone is harmed, but in all likelihood, we are not wrong.
And for this reason, I fully expect that if we were to do a multi-generational study of meth-heads, we would find that they don’t do all that well in the reproduction department in comparison to a control group.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that the things that we think of as harms (and I listed a few as examples) actually do interfere with reproduction (with obvious but completely understandable exceptions, such as when they happen to people who have already lost their ability to reproduce),
Most of the things we think of as harms also interfere one’s heartbeat, with one’s brainwaves, with one’s breathing, with one’s digestive systems, with one’s sleep patterns, etc, since we’re our biologies and every biological function is interconnected with the other.
Depending how you define your terms, your whole argument is either obviously false (we don’t perceive condoms and contraception to be “harm” though it interferes with reproduction, but we do perceive that being enslaved for breeding purposes is harm, even though it increases the probability of our reproduction) or trivially true (as everything done to us, both good and bad, interferes with every biological function in our bodies).
And for this reason, I fully expect that if we were to do a multi-generational study of meth-heads, we would find that they don’t do all that well in the reproduction department in comparison to a control group.
I also don’t expect they do well in the life expectancy or health or prosperity department, which is a more customary method of determining well-being and “harm” than “number of descendants” is.
Most of the things we think of as harms also interfere one’s heartbeat, with one’s brainwaves, with one’s breathing, with one’s digestive systems, with one’s sleep patterns, etc, since we’re our biologies and every biological function is interconnected with the other.
Indeed, and for this reason, we might be able to measure harms indirectly by looking at heartbeat. A doctor actually does this sort of thing—he looks at your vital signs to see how you’re doing.
Nothing I wrote should be interpreted as excluding these other ways of measuring harms. I was talking about one measure, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t others.
your whole argument [could be read as] trivially true...
Indeed, and I expected it to be read as trivially true, and therefore as the claim I was responding to as trivially false. I wasn’t expecting any pushback on such an obvious point. If drug addicts really are harmed by drugs, we should expect this to show up in lower reproduction. It’s really quite a trivial point.
I also don’t expect they do well in the life expectancy or health or prosperity department, which is a more customary method of determining well-being and “harm” than “number of descendants” is.
Indeed, but these other respects aren’t relevant to the claim I was addressing, which concerned the reproduction of drug addicts.
Okay, you seem to be claiming something and then claiming that you’re not, so just answer me this: if meth addicts systematically out-breed not-meth-addicts, is it still possible their meth addiction is harming them?
Recall that I referred to reproduction to several generations, the point being that the meth addicts need not only produce babies but also raise them well enough that the babies grow up to reproduce—and so on, for many generations.
If meth addicts really did better than the rest of us in that department, then yes, I would seriously question whether meth addicts weren’t actually a superior breed of human. I mean, really, take this very seriously and extrapolate out many generations. After, I don’t know, a hundred generations, the whole planet is populated with meth heads, with just small pockets here and there of non-meth-heads. It’s a bit like the planet of the apes scenario, but with meth heads instead of apes. In this scenario, yes, I would have to seriously question whether meth heads’ addiction is harming them.
But an argument can still be made. For example, it might be that meth-heads, however much better they do than the rest of us, would do even better if they kicked the habit. In that case, they would be better than the rest of us despite their addiction, not because of it. In this case, the addiction would be, possibly, some negative side-effect of an otherwise superior genetic makeup.
Well, now it seems once again that you’re using reproductive success as your criteria for whether or not somebody is being harmed, but you say that’s not what you believe. Maybe it’s better to go full thought-experiment on this, so:
There is a drug called Reproductene. Taking it causes extreme pain, permanently disables your ability to feel happiness, damages your memory, destroys your imagination, and causes you to have strong cravings for more Reproductene. It also creates a new human being with 50% of your genetic code every time you take it. This human being is created an adult already addicted to Reproductene. After taking a hundred doses of the drug and creating a hundred half-copies of you you die. Reproductene is in large supply. Is taking Reproductene harmful?
There is a drug called Reproductene. Taking it causes extreme pain, permanently disables your ability to feel happiness, damages your memory, destroys your imagination, and causes you to have strong cravings for more Reproductene.
Is it awful that that makes me burst into giggles?
Now you’re just being obtuse. Talk about what natural selection “cares about” is obviously nonliteral and has an obvious meaning. To say that natural selection “cares about” A and does not “care about” B simply means that A, and not B, is a factor in natural selection.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that the things that we think of as harms (and I listed a few as examples) actually do interfere with reproduction (with obvious but completely understandable exceptions, such as when they happen to people who have already lost their ability to reproduce), whether or not we are aware of this fact or not. It is not a definition. It is a factual claim about the actual things we consider to be harms.
No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying that we can be wrong about whether something that looks like a harm, is a harm. It’s certainly possible. Oh, come on, you have got to admit that it is possible to be wrong about whether someone is harmed.
But please not that I also asserted my confidence that drug addicts really are being harmed. Why am I confident? Because while I accept the theoretical possibility of being wrong, I don’t think I actually am wrong. I trust my perception on this matter. When I look at the photographs of meth heads, I have great confidence that they are harmed by their use of the drug. We can in principle be wrong about whether someone is harmed, but in all likelihood, we are not wrong.
And for this reason, I fully expect that if we were to do a multi-generational study of meth-heads, we would find that they don’t do all that well in the reproduction department in comparison to a control group.
Most of the things we think of as harms also interfere one’s heartbeat, with one’s brainwaves, with one’s breathing, with one’s digestive systems, with one’s sleep patterns, etc, since we’re our biologies and every biological function is interconnected with the other.
Depending how you define your terms, your whole argument is either obviously false (we don’t perceive condoms and contraception to be “harm” though it interferes with reproduction, but we do perceive that being enslaved for breeding purposes is harm, even though it increases the probability of our reproduction) or trivially true (as everything done to us, both good and bad, interferes with every biological function in our bodies).
I also don’t expect they do well in the life expectancy or health or prosperity department, which is a more customary method of determining well-being and “harm” than “number of descendants” is.
Indeed, and for this reason, we might be able to measure harms indirectly by looking at heartbeat. A doctor actually does this sort of thing—he looks at your vital signs to see how you’re doing.
Nothing I wrote should be interpreted as excluding these other ways of measuring harms. I was talking about one measure, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t others.
Indeed, and I expected it to be read as trivially true, and therefore as the claim I was responding to as trivially false. I wasn’t expecting any pushback on such an obvious point. If drug addicts really are harmed by drugs, we should expect this to show up in lower reproduction. It’s really quite a trivial point.
Indeed, but these other respects aren’t relevant to the claim I was addressing, which concerned the reproduction of drug addicts.
Okay, you seem to be claiming something and then claiming that you’re not, so just answer me this: if meth addicts systematically out-breed not-meth-addicts, is it still possible their meth addiction is harming them?
Recall that I referred to reproduction to several generations, the point being that the meth addicts need not only produce babies but also raise them well enough that the babies grow up to reproduce—and so on, for many generations.
If meth addicts really did better than the rest of us in that department, then yes, I would seriously question whether meth addicts weren’t actually a superior breed of human. I mean, really, take this very seriously and extrapolate out many generations. After, I don’t know, a hundred generations, the whole planet is populated with meth heads, with just small pockets here and there of non-meth-heads. It’s a bit like the planet of the apes scenario, but with meth heads instead of apes. In this scenario, yes, I would have to seriously question whether meth heads’ addiction is harming them.
But an argument can still be made. For example, it might be that meth-heads, however much better they do than the rest of us, would do even better if they kicked the habit. In that case, they would be better than the rest of us despite their addiction, not because of it. In this case, the addiction would be, possibly, some negative side-effect of an otherwise superior genetic makeup.
Is that enough of an answer or do you want more?
Well, now it seems once again that you’re using reproductive success as your criteria for whether or not somebody is being harmed, but you say that’s not what you believe. Maybe it’s better to go full thought-experiment on this, so:
There is a drug called Reproductene. Taking it causes extreme pain, permanently disables your ability to feel happiness, damages your memory, destroys your imagination, and causes you to have strong cravings for more Reproductene. It also creates a new human being with 50% of your genetic code every time you take it. This human being is created an adult already addicted to Reproductene. After taking a hundred doses of the drug and creating a hundred half-copies of you you die. Reproductene is in large supply. Is taking Reproductene harmful?
Is it awful that that makes me burst into giggles?
I am taking it as evidence that I may be mistaken.
Sorry, I really have no time to continue.