Here is the promised other issue I see with the conflation of the general[1] and specific[2] forms of effective altruism.
You do not actually ever argue for the ideas making up that specific form.
It seems to go like this:
“We all think being altruistic is good, right? Of course we do. And we think it’s important to be effective in our altruism, don’t we? Of course. Good! Now, onwards to the fight for animal rights, the saving of children in Africa, the application of utilitarian principles to our charity work, and all the rest.”
Now, as I say in my other comments, one issue is that potential newcomers to the movement might assent to those first two questions, but to the “Now, onwards …” say — “whoa, whoa, where did that suddenly come from?”. But the other issue is that it seems like you yourselves haven’t given much thought to those positions. How do you know they’re right, those philosophical and moral ideas? A lot of EA writing seems not to even consider the question! It’s not like these are obvious principles you’re assuming — many intelligent people, on LessWrong and elsewhere, do not agree with them!
Of course I don’t actually think you’ve simply accepted these ideas out of some sort of blind go-alonging with some liberal crowd. This is LessWrong; I think better of you folks than that. (Although some EA-ers without an LW-or-similar background may well have given the matter just as little thought as that.) Presumably, you were, at some point, convinced of these ideas, in some way, by some arguments or evidence or considerations.
But I have no idea what those considerations are. I have no idea what convinced you; I don’t know why you believe what you believe, because you hardly even acknowledge that you believe these things. In most EA writings I’ve seen, they are breezily assumed. That is not good for the epistemic health of the movement, I think.
I think it would be good to have some effort to clearly delineate the ideas that are held by, and commonly taken as background assumptions by, the majority of people in the EA movement; to acknowledge that these are nontrivial philosophical and moral positions, which are not shared by all people or even all who identify as rationalists; to explain how it was that you[3] became convinced of these ideas; and to lay out some arguments for said ideas, for potential disagreers to debate, if desired.
[1] “Being altruistic is good, and we should be effective in our altruistic actions.” [2] The specific cluster of ideas held by a specific community of people who describe themselves as the EA community. [3] By “you” I don’t necessarily mean you, personally, but: as many prominent figures in the EA movement as possible, and more generally, anyone who undertakes to write things intended to build the EA movement, recruit, etc.
Now, onwards to the fight for animal rights, the saving of children in Africa, the application of utilitarian principles to our charity work, and all the rest.
Global poverty don’t generally state or imply utilitarianism or similar views, though x-riskers do (at least those who value non-existent people). I personally favour global poverty charities, and am quite tentative in my attitudes to many mainstream ethical theories, and don’t think being more so would affect my donations (though being less so might).
But the other issue is that it seems like you yourselves haven’t given much thought to those positions. How do you know they’re right, those philosophical and moral ideas?
The degree of thought varies a lot, sure. I agree that people should spend more time on them when they’re action relevant, as they are for people who’d act to prevent x-risk if they accepted them.
In most EA writings I’ve seen, they are breezily assumed.
Breezy assumption isn’t optimal, but detailed writing about ethical theory isn’t either.
Here is the promised other issue I see with the conflation of the general[1] and specific[2] forms of effective altruism.
You do not actually ever argue for the ideas making up that specific form.
It seems to go like this:
“We all think being altruistic is good, right? Of course we do. And we think it’s important to be effective in our altruism, don’t we? Of course. Good! Now, onwards to the fight for animal rights, the saving of children in Africa, the application of utilitarian principles to our charity work, and all the rest.”
Now, as I say in my other comments, one issue is that potential newcomers to the movement might assent to those first two questions, but to the “Now, onwards …” say — “whoa, whoa, where did that suddenly come from?”. But the other issue is that it seems like you yourselves haven’t given much thought to those positions. How do you know they’re right, those philosophical and moral ideas? A lot of EA writing seems not to even consider the question! It’s not like these are obvious principles you’re assuming — many intelligent people, on LessWrong and elsewhere, do not agree with them!
Of course I don’t actually think you’ve simply accepted these ideas out of some sort of blind go-alonging with some liberal crowd. This is LessWrong; I think better of you folks than that. (Although some EA-ers without an LW-or-similar background may well have given the matter just as little thought as that.) Presumably, you were, at some point, convinced of these ideas, in some way, by some arguments or evidence or considerations.
But I have no idea what those considerations are. I have no idea what convinced you; I don’t know why you believe what you believe, because you hardly even acknowledge that you believe these things. In most EA writings I’ve seen, they are breezily assumed. That is not good for the epistemic health of the movement, I think.
I think it would be good to have some effort to clearly delineate the ideas that are held by, and commonly taken as background assumptions by, the majority of people in the EA movement; to acknowledge that these are nontrivial philosophical and moral positions, which are not shared by all people or even all who identify as rationalists; to explain how it was that you[3] became convinced of these ideas; and to lay out some arguments for said ideas, for potential disagreers to debate, if desired.
[1] “Being altruistic is good, and we should be effective in our altruistic actions.”
[2] The specific cluster of ideas held by a specific community of people who describe themselves as the EA community.
[3] By “you” I don’t necessarily mean you, personally, but: as many prominent figures in the EA movement as possible, and more generally, anyone who undertakes to write things intended to build the EA movement, recruit, etc.
Global poverty don’t generally state or imply utilitarianism or similar views, though x-riskers do (at least those who value non-existent people). I personally favour global poverty charities, and am quite tentative in my attitudes to many mainstream ethical theories, and don’t think being more so would affect my donations (though being less so might).
The degree of thought varies a lot, sure. I agree that people should spend more time on them when they’re action relevant, as they are for people who’d act to prevent x-risk if they accepted them.
Breezy assumption isn’t optimal, but detailed writing about ethical theory isn’t either.