I agree about consequentialism. Also, at that level of detail I can’t see a way it’s action-relevant (whereas if most EAs say they have no knowledge of ethical theories, that suggests a non-philosophical audience is more receptive than some have thought).
We should have explained that political terms were what you’d naturally describe yourself as in your country. Do people think most will have interpreted them thus? If so, we can cross-tabulate them against country.
If not, would this make many people more than one point out along the spectrum? I’d have thought that an American who describes themselves as ‘left’ is at least ‘centre left’ in Europe, and so on.
If not, would this make many people more than one point out along the spectrum?
Quite possibly. At least in Finland, the word “left” refers to people who tend to have at least a rough familiarity with actual Marxist theories and still endorse many of them, and tend to use the word “capitalism” as a negative term. It also includes actual outright communists who want to go to a planned economy, though they’re a fringe group even here and mostly dying out. Still, it’s my impression that “Left” means something very much more to right in the US.
I’ve frequently heard it said that the average American leftist would be considered a clear right-winger in Finland, though I don’t have enough familiarity with the exact positions of American leftists to be able to tell whether that’s true.
I don’t have enough familiarity with the exact positions of American leftists to be able to tell whether that’s true.
It’s hard to say anything coherent about the U.S. “left” and “right” without antagonizing both groups, but my $0.02:
I’d characterize the typical U.S. leftist as not really having the foggiest clue about Marx beyond his having some vaguely important relationship to Soviet-style communism, and as not having a clear stance regarding communism or capitalism… either because they actively support a mixed economy, or because they are confused about economics. (I don’t mean to imply here that Americans who do have a clear stance aren’t confused.)
While outright communists are generally considered “left” in the U.S., much as outright fascists are generally considered “right” (though some disagree), neither group is terribly relevant; they exist mostly as extremes to rhetorically compare our political opponents to. “So-and-so is a communist/fascist” gets said a lot, but if one were to respond to that claim by discussing various points of non-congruence with communism or fascism this would likely be seen as sophistry rather than on-point analysis.
The “left” tends to support government intervention to enforce equal treatment of some genders, ethnicities and sexual orientations, to enforce wealth distribution, and to provide communal access to various goods (of which the most fractious right now is health insurance, which has become a proxy for health care). Domestically, this intervention is usually framed in terms of government-regulated markets rather than straight-up government control of the means of production or distribution, although there are exceptions.
Also, the “left” is generally associated with minimizing restrictions on abortion and contraception, maximizing restrictions on firearms, unionizing labor, increasing the political influence of feminism (and “social justice” more generally), and decreasing the political influence of Christianity (and religion more generally), and decreasing support for the military, while the “right” is generally associated with the opposites, though to my mind these are more like historical accidents that could have gone either way.
The Democratic Party is seen as “left” and more popular in high-density urban areas; the Republican Party is seen as “right” and popular in more rural areas. There’s a substantial group of “independent” voters but they tend to support one party over the other.
I’d characterize the typical U.S. leftist as not really having the foggiest clue about Marx beyond his having some vaguely important relationship to Soviet-style communism, and as not having a clear stance regarding communism or capitalism… either because they actively support a mixed economy, or because they are confused about economics.
I think this is true, but with the caveat that a lot of the memes circulating among educated leftists in the US are basically Marxian in their approach to class and economics. Usually not orthodox Marxist, though, and they fall well short of cohering into a complete Marxian analysis anywhere outside of sociology departments and the odd punk show.
Joe Left is generally not aware of this. Joe Right probably has a confused idea of the relation (“communist” is a dirty word in the US, so right-wing news outlets don’t miss opportunities to use it), but is unaware of the Marxian/Marxist distinction and thinks it makes Joe Left an outright commie.
I don’t know enough about Marxianism (either orthodox or heterodox) to have a useful opinion about how popular Marxian memes are among the US left (or, for that matter, the US right), but I certainly agree that that’s a different question than how well informed J Left is about Marx, and an interesting one.
I’m not so sure, in terms of their actual policies I hear the British Conservatives are pretty close to the US Democrats. They’re cutting services for the poor, but to a level above that found in the US. That does typically show inclinations similar to those of US Republicans, but it could also reflect a view about the optimal end level of services similar to some Democrats. So I guess it depends on what it shows most often, and whether those inclinations are most informative for the purposes of understanding people (eg in this survey).
I agree about consequentialism. Also, at that level of detail I can’t see a way it’s action-relevant (whereas if most EAs say they have no knowledge of ethical theories, that suggests a non-philosophical audience is more receptive than some have thought).
We should have explained that political terms were what you’d naturally describe yourself as in your country. Do people think most will have interpreted them thus? If so, we can cross-tabulate them against country.
If not, would this make many people more than one point out along the spectrum? I’d have thought that an American who describes themselves as ‘left’ is at least ‘centre left’ in Europe, and so on.
Quite possibly. At least in Finland, the word “left” refers to people who tend to have at least a rough familiarity with actual Marxist theories and still endorse many of them, and tend to use the word “capitalism” as a negative term. It also includes actual outright communists who want to go to a planned economy, though they’re a fringe group even here and mostly dying out. Still, it’s my impression that “Left” means something very much more to right in the US.
I’ve frequently heard it said that the average American leftist would be considered a clear right-winger in Finland, though I don’t have enough familiarity with the exact positions of American leftists to be able to tell whether that’s true.
It’s hard to say anything coherent about the U.S. “left” and “right” without antagonizing both groups, but my $0.02:
I’d characterize the typical U.S. leftist as not really having the foggiest clue about Marx beyond his having some vaguely important relationship to Soviet-style communism, and as not having a clear stance regarding communism or capitalism… either because they actively support a mixed economy, or because they are confused about economics. (I don’t mean to imply here that Americans who do have a clear stance aren’t confused.)
While outright communists are generally considered “left” in the U.S., much as outright fascists are generally considered “right” (though some disagree), neither group is terribly relevant; they exist mostly as extremes to rhetorically compare our political opponents to. “So-and-so is a communist/fascist” gets said a lot, but if one were to respond to that claim by discussing various points of non-congruence with communism or fascism this would likely be seen as sophistry rather than on-point analysis.
The “left” tends to support government intervention to enforce equal treatment of some genders, ethnicities and sexual orientations, to enforce wealth distribution, and to provide communal access to various goods (of which the most fractious right now is health insurance, which has become a proxy for health care). Domestically, this intervention is usually framed in terms of government-regulated markets rather than straight-up government control of the means of production or distribution, although there are exceptions.
Also, the “left” is generally associated with minimizing restrictions on abortion and contraception, maximizing restrictions on firearms, unionizing labor, increasing the political influence of feminism (and “social justice” more generally), and decreasing the political influence of Christianity (and religion more generally), and decreasing support for the military, while the “right” is generally associated with the opposites, though to my mind these are more like historical accidents that could have gone either way.
The Democratic Party is seen as “left” and more popular in high-density urban areas; the Republican Party is seen as “right” and popular in more rural areas. There’s a substantial group of “independent” voters but they tend to support one party over the other.
I think this is true, but with the caveat that a lot of the memes circulating among educated leftists in the US are basically Marxian in their approach to class and economics. Usually not orthodox Marxist, though, and they fall well short of cohering into a complete Marxian analysis anywhere outside of sociology departments and the odd punk show.
Joe Left is generally not aware of this. Joe Right probably has a confused idea of the relation (“communist” is a dirty word in the US, so right-wing news outlets don’t miss opportunities to use it), but is unaware of the Marxian/Marxist distinction and thinks it makes Joe Left an outright commie.
I don’t know enough about Marxianism (either orthodox or heterodox) to have a useful opinion about how popular Marxian memes are among the US left (or, for that matter, the US right), but I certainly agree that that’s a different question than how well informed J Left is about Marx, and an interesting one.
I’m not so sure, in terms of their actual policies I hear the British Conservatives are pretty close to the US Democrats. They’re cutting services for the poor, but to a level above that found in the US. That does typically show inclinations similar to those of US Republicans, but it could also reflect a view about the optimal end level of services similar to some Democrats. So I guess it depends on what it shows most often, and whether those inclinations are most informative for the purposes of understanding people (eg in this survey).