That’s what I thought as well, until I read this post from “Fake Steve Jobs”. Not the most reliable source, obviously, but he does seem to have a point:
But, see, arguments about national averages are a smokescreen. Sure, people kill themselves all the time. But the Foxconn people all work for the same company, in the same place, and they’re all doing it in the same way, and that way happens to be a gruesome, public way that makes a spectacle of their death. They’re not pill-takers or wrist-slitters or hangers. … They’re jumpers. And jumpers, my friends, are a different breed. Ask any cop or shrink who deals with this stuff. Jumpers want to make a statement. Jumpers are trying to tell you something.
Now I’m not entirely sure of the details, but if it’s true that all the suicides in the recent cluster consisted of jumping off the Foxconn factory roof, that does seem to be more significant than just 15 employees committing suicide in unrelated incidents. In fact, it seems like it might even be the case that there are a lot more suicides than the ones we’ve heard about, and the cluster of 15 are just those who’ve killed themselves via this particular, highly visible, method (I’m just speculating here).
I’m not sure what to make of this—without knowing more of the details its probably impossible to say what’s going on. But the basic point seems sound: that the argument about being below national average suicide rates doesn’t really hold up if there’s something specific about a particular group of incidents that makes them non-independent. As an example, if the members of some cult commit suicide en masse, you can’t look at the region the event happened in and say “well the overall suicide rate for the region is still below the national average, so there’s nothing to see here”
I was surprised when I read a statistical analysis on national death rates. Whenever there was a suicide by a particular method published in newspapers or on television, deaths of that form spiked in the following weeks. This is despite the copycat deaths often being called ‘accidents’ (examples included crashed cars and aeroplanes). Scary stuff (or very impressive statistics-fu).
Yes, this is connected to the existence of suicide epidemics. The most famous example is the ongoing suicide epidemic over the last fifty years in Micronesia, where both the causes and methods of suicide have been the same (hanging). See for example this discussion.
If all the members of a cult committed suicide then the local rate is 100%.
The most local rate that we so far know of is 15⁄400,000 which is 4x below baseline. If these 15 people worked at, say, the same plant of 1,000 workers you may have a point. But we don’t know.
If all the members of a cult committed suicide then the local rate is 100%.
Fair enough—my example was poorly thought out in retrospect.
But I don’t think it’s correct that there’s nothing to explain. If it’s true that all 15 committed suicide by the same method—a fairly rare method frequently used by people who are trying to make a public statement with their death—then there seems to be something needing to be explained. As Fake Steve Jobs points out later in the cited article, if 15 employees of Walmart committed suicide within the span of a few months, all of them by way of jumping off the roof of their Walmart, wouldn’t you think that was odd? Don’t you think that would be more significant, and more deserving of an explanation, than the same 15 Walmart employees committing suicide in a variety of locations, by a variety of different methods?
I’m not committing to any particular explanation here (Douglas Knight’s suggestion, for one, sounds like a plausible explanation which doesn’t involve any wrongdoing on Foxconn’s part), I’m just saying that I do think there’s “something to explain”.
That’s what I thought as well, until I read this post from “Fake Steve Jobs”. Not the most reliable source, obviously, but he does seem to have a point:
Now I’m not entirely sure of the details, but if it’s true that all the suicides in the recent cluster consisted of jumping off the Foxconn factory roof, that does seem to be more significant than just 15 employees committing suicide in unrelated incidents. In fact, it seems like it might even be the case that there are a lot more suicides than the ones we’ve heard about, and the cluster of 15 are just those who’ve killed themselves via this particular, highly visible, method (I’m just speculating here).
I’m not sure what to make of this—without knowing more of the details its probably impossible to say what’s going on. But the basic point seems sound: that the argument about being below national average suicide rates doesn’t really hold up if there’s something specific about a particular group of incidents that makes them non-independent. As an example, if the members of some cult commit suicide en masse, you can’t look at the region the event happened in and say “well the overall suicide rate for the region is still below the national average, so there’s nothing to see here”
Suicide and methods of suicide are contagious, FWIW.
keyword = “werther effect”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werther_effect
I was surprised when I read a statistical analysis on national death rates. Whenever there was a suicide by a particular method published in newspapers or on television, deaths of that form spiked in the following weeks. This is despite the copycat deaths often being called ‘accidents’ (examples included crashed cars and aeroplanes). Scary stuff (or very impressive statistics-fu).
Yes, this is connected to the existence of suicide epidemics. The most famous example is the ongoing suicide epidemic over the last fifty years in Micronesia, where both the causes and methods of suicide have been the same (hanging). See for example this discussion.
If all the members of a cult committed suicide then the local rate is 100%.
The most local rate that we so far know of is 15⁄400,000 which is 4x below baseline. If these 15 people worked at, say, the same plant of 1,000 workers you may have a point. But we don’t know.
At this point there is nothing to explain.
Fair enough—my example was poorly thought out in retrospect.
But I don’t think it’s correct that there’s nothing to explain. If it’s true that all 15 committed suicide by the same method—a fairly rare method frequently used by people who are trying to make a public statement with their death—then there seems to be something needing to be explained. As Fake Steve Jobs points out later in the cited article, if 15 employees of Walmart committed suicide within the span of a few months, all of them by way of jumping off the roof of their Walmart, wouldn’t you think that was odd? Don’t you think that would be more significant, and more deserving of an explanation, than the same 15 Walmart employees committing suicide in a variety of locations, by a variety of different methods?
I’m not committing to any particular explanation here (Douglas Knight’s suggestion, for one, sounds like a plausible explanation which doesn’t involve any wrongdoing on Foxconn’s part), I’m just saying that I do think there’s “something to explain”.
Just curious: why the downvote? Was this just a case of downvote = disagree? If so, what do you disagree with specifically?
Strange. I thought it made a good point, so I just upvoted it.