I don’t know if many of you guys realize, but this whole pledging-money-to-get-motivated business is a very upper-middle-class thing to do.
Notice that this distinction is entirely social and psychological and has nothing to do with the actual micro-economic incentives that apply at various levels of class status or wealth. You describe how poorer people get more value per marginal dollar added. While this means that a commitment device that uses money costs more in practical value. However, the same consideration applies to the motivational impact of any given monetary incentive.
Diminishing marginal utility applies to both sides.
well, I don’t want to say “check your privilege”, but… check your privilege.
I suggest checking how your perception of lack of privilege is holding you back. Some limitations are real. Others, like this one, are merely perceived.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re saying. Is it that poor people can use the same contract structure by just reducing the money they pledge according to how the utility is weighted?
So, if, say, someone making $3000/month (say expenses leave them with $1000 after all is said and done) is trying commitment contracts, it’d be reasonable for them to pledge $1000, or maybe $500 if their savings are in dire straights, but someone making $1000 a month (who is probably in debt at the end of the month) should still find a monetary value greater than $0.00 that they can justify pledging? What if someone has net negative income, where the value of overcoming akrasia might be the difference between bankrupsy and financial stability, but the money they have available to pledge would come out of there “please don’t take everything I own that could possibly get me back into the economy” fund, where failure would be the difference between inescapable poverty and the (still crappy but slightly less so) status quo? I’m assuming pledging negative money on failure is obviously not allowed.
Diminishing marginal utility of money applies on both sides of the equation to the same degree. To whatever extent this motivation strategy is prejudiced against ‘poor people’ the disadvantage is mediated by psychological profiles associated with that class, not by the micro-economic incentives present. This does not mean that the problem is unimportant but it is important not to conflate the two. This comment is a (minor and entirely non-offensive) misuse of moral authority.
NOTE: I’m not advocating financial commitment contracts for poor people. I’m not advocating financial commitment contracts at all, for anyone. They do work for some people but I know my psychology well enough to know that they have a toxic influence on me personally if I try that style of influence on myself. People can and should do whatever works for them. But I’ll leave championing commitment contracts to someone who likes them. (I’d rather champion, say, self rewards strategies for ugh field removal.)
Notice that this distinction is entirely social and psychological and has nothing to do with the actual micro-economic incentives that apply at various levels of class status or wealth. You describe how poorer people get more value per marginal dollar added. While this means that a commitment device that uses money costs more in practical value. However, the same consideration applies to the motivational impact of any given monetary incentive.
Diminishing marginal utility applies to both sides.
It’s more complicated than that. As explained in Thinking: Fast and Slow, most people are risk adverse in gains, risk prone in losses, and weigh losses more heavily for gains, but whereas for well-off people gains and losses are measured from the status quo, for the very poor they’re counted from a higher level, so that up to a certain point getting more money feels more like a reduced loss than a gain (which is why poor people are more likely to spend sizeable chunks of money on lotteries).
So, it’s well possible that the risk of losing 1% of one’s money has a different motivational effect for someone very poor than for someone well off.
I have no argument with the proposition that social class, financial wealth and the associated ingrained habits of thought can change the psychological responses to stimulus.
Notice that this distinction is entirely social and psychological and has nothing to do with the actual micro-economic incentives that apply at various levels of class status or wealth.
Yeah, I know. That’s what I was going for.
I suggest checking how your perception of lack of privilege is holding you back. Some limitations are real. Others, like this one, are merely perceived.
Holding me back from what? From pursuing a strategy of combating akrasia that runs contrary to my goal of making and keeping money?
Holding me back from what? From pursuing a strategy of combating akrasia that runs contrary to my goal of making and keeping money?
I mean precisely the reversal of the “check your privilege” charge quoted. Privilege related thinking distortion is interfering not with the thoughts of those to whom you make your demand but instead is evident in your own comment. To whatever extent this is a problem that generalises to self-limitation in other more important areas it represents an opportunity for you, not a social obligation for others.
Privilege related thinking distortion is interfering not with the thoughts of those to whom you make your demand but instead is evident in your own comment.
You basically just “no u”-ed me. Needless to say, I’m unconvinced. If you have good reason to believe that your model of the world is accurate and mine is wrong, then please come back with arguments rather than a mere prompt for me to switch from my possibly biased view to your possibly biased one.
Also, 1) I don’t really buy into this whole privilege notion as much as it may seem that I do, see the other comments; 2) what you call “self-limitation” and “holding you back” I call “being careful with spending” and it’s worked awesome for me so far; 3) I’d really like to know why you think that my unwillingness to spend money in this specific way is such a liability for me. Why not just shrug and say “okay, this cheapskate can go get motivated some other way” instead?
If you have good reason to believe that your model of the world is accurate and mine is wrong, then please come back with arguments rather than a mere prompt for me to switch from my possibly biased view to your possibly biased one.
I have given multiple paragraphs of explanation both to your self and to another user. It would be one thing to say “I disagree with the reasoning you have given” but it is quite another to say “you have not made arguments you have merely ”. This is a disingenuous social move that is more common than I would like and one that I hold in contempt. I’m not going to engage further with this kind of debate tactic or reasoning style.
Your contribution to this thread represents an attempt to influence social behavior and normative beliefs via moral authority. You may consider the proposed normative beliefs summarily rejected for the previously expressed reasons and your influence in that direction opposed to whatever small extent a few comments entail.
3) I’d really like to know why you think that my unwillingness to spend money in this specific way is such a liability for me. Why not just shrug and say “okay, this cheapskate can go get motivated some other way” instead?
Straw man. I’ve said no such thing. In fact, I’ve made quite clear declarations to the contrary.
Oh. Sorry. Then I suppose I’m bad at identifying arguments supporting a given conclusion. (Which is not very surprising, given that I understood maybe about half of what you said.) Also, I wrote that comment before reading the rest of your replies in the subthread.
Notice that this distinction is entirely social and psychological and has nothing to do with the actual micro-economic incentives that apply at various levels of class status or wealth. You describe how poorer people get more value per marginal dollar added. While this means that a commitment device that uses money costs more in practical value. However, the same consideration applies to the motivational impact of any given monetary incentive.
Diminishing marginal utility applies to both sides.
I suggest checking how your perception of lack of privilege is holding you back. Some limitations are real. Others, like this one, are merely perceived.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re saying. Is it that poor people can use the same contract structure by just reducing the money they pledge according to how the utility is weighted?
So, if, say, someone making $3000/month (say expenses leave them with $1000 after all is said and done) is trying commitment contracts, it’d be reasonable for them to pledge $1000, or maybe $500 if their savings are in dire straights, but someone making $1000 a month (who is probably in debt at the end of the month) should still find a monetary value greater than $0.00 that they can justify pledging? What if someone has net negative income, where the value of overcoming akrasia might be the difference between bankrupsy and financial stability, but the money they have available to pledge would come out of there “please don’t take everything I own that could possibly get me back into the economy” fund, where failure would be the difference between inescapable poverty and the (still crappy but slightly less so) status quo? I’m assuming pledging negative money on failure is obviously not allowed.
Diminishing marginal utility of money applies on both sides of the equation to the same degree. To whatever extent this motivation strategy is prejudiced against ‘poor people’ the disadvantage is mediated by psychological profiles associated with that class, not by the micro-economic incentives present. This does not mean that the problem is unimportant but it is important not to conflate the two. This comment is a (minor and entirely non-offensive) misuse of moral authority.
NOTE: I’m not advocating financial commitment contracts for poor people. I’m not advocating financial commitment contracts at all, for anyone. They do work for some people but I know my psychology well enough to know that they have a toxic influence on me personally if I try that style of influence on myself. People can and should do whatever works for them. But I’ll leave championing commitment contracts to someone who likes them. (I’d rather champion, say, self rewards strategies for ugh field removal.)
It’s more complicated than that. As explained in Thinking: Fast and Slow, most people are risk adverse in gains, risk prone in losses, and weigh losses more heavily for gains, but whereas for well-off people gains and losses are measured from the status quo, for the very poor they’re counted from a higher level, so that up to a certain point getting more money feels more like a reduced loss than a gain (which is why poor people are more likely to spend sizeable chunks of money on lotteries).
So, it’s well possible that the risk of losing 1% of one’s money has a different motivational effect for someone very poor than for someone well off.
I have no argument with the proposition that social class, financial wealth and the associated ingrained habits of thought can change the psychological responses to stimulus.
Yeah, I know. That’s what I was going for.
Holding me back from what? From pursuing a strategy of combating akrasia that runs contrary to my goal of making and keeping money?
I mean precisely the reversal of the “check your privilege” charge quoted. Privilege related thinking distortion is interfering not with the thoughts of those to whom you make your demand but instead is evident in your own comment. To whatever extent this is a problem that generalises to self-limitation in other more important areas it represents an opportunity for you, not a social obligation for others.
You basically just “no u”-ed me. Needless to say, I’m unconvinced. If you have good reason to believe that your model of the world is accurate and mine is wrong, then please come back with arguments rather than a mere prompt for me to switch from my possibly biased view to your possibly biased one.
Also, 1) I don’t really buy into this whole privilege notion as much as it may seem that I do, see the other comments; 2) what you call “self-limitation” and “holding you back” I call “being careful with spending” and it’s worked awesome for me so far; 3) I’d really like to know why you think that my unwillingness to spend money in this specific way is such a liability for me. Why not just shrug and say “okay, this cheapskate can go get motivated some other way” instead?
I have given multiple paragraphs of explanation both to your self and to another user. It would be one thing to say “I disagree with the reasoning you have given” but it is quite another to say “you have not made arguments you have merely ”. This is a disingenuous social move that is more common than I would like and one that I hold in contempt. I’m not going to engage further with this kind of debate tactic or reasoning style.
Your contribution to this thread represents an attempt to influence social behavior and normative beliefs via moral authority. You may consider the proposed normative beliefs summarily rejected for the previously expressed reasons and your influence in that direction opposed to whatever small extent a few comments entail.
Straw man. I’ve said no such thing. In fact, I’ve made quite clear declarations to the contrary.
Oh. Sorry. Then I suppose I’m bad at identifying arguments supporting a given conclusion. (Which is not very surprising, given that I understood maybe about half of what you said.) Also, I wrote that comment before reading the rest of your replies in the subthread.
Sorry again. Please don’t get mad.