You wrote, “Devout Muslim women in Muslim countries don’t {...}” but the woman in the story is not identified as a “devout” Muslim; notice that she is portrayed as merely curious about Yvain’s atheism and only expresses shock at his belief in evolution.
Even though the passage didn’t have the phrase “devout Muslim”, it can still be a reasonable inference. Someone this familiar with their faith and aware and disdainful of the specific arguments against it, has invested more time than most cereligionists and is more likely to be stringently following the rules.
Before calling Yvain a liar, you should have considered whether your model of social norms in major Middle-Eastern cities is wrong.
I did; it’s just that the consideration didn’t end up favoring Yvain. I also factored in his past tendency to embellish facts.
Someone this familiar with their faith and aware and disdainful of the specific arguments against it,
This does not seem like an accurate reading of the post. “Aware and disdainful of the specific arguments against it”? The woman in the story is portrayed as unfamiliar with atheism and atheists, not familiar-yet-hostile. She doesn’t even attack the argument from biblical contradictions.
it’s just that the consideration didn’t end up favoring Yvain.
So I take it that you’ve been to Cairo or other modern middle-eastern cities, or read extensively about them? I find it hard to see how you could be so confident in your domain knowledge otherwise.
I also factored in his past tendency to embellish facts.
This does not seem like an accurate reading of the post. “Aware and disdainful of the specific arguments against it”? The woman in the story is portrayed as unfamiliar with atheism and atheists, not familiar-yet-hostile.
First, the term was disdainful, not hostile. And my point only required that she was aware of people seriously believing they found contradictions in holy texts and people holding evolution-related beliefs in contradiction of creationists accounts, both of which she deemed insufficient. That’s familiar enough for the point I made.
So I take it that you’ve been to Cairo or other modern middle-eastern cities, or read extensively about them?
Read.
I also factored in his past tendency to embellish facts.
What past tendency? Do you have links?
Of course. I didn’t list them the first time around because I (and most well-adjusted people) don’t feel the need to list every piece of evidence influencing every belief they express, especially when it would come off as a “let’s list all of __′s past misdeeds!” party.
But since you ask, here you go:
In this article, it’s apparent he’s been made incompletely aware of factoids and takes licence to hype them up to the extreme without checking them, especially the All Sex is Rape line. (Yes, I though the attribution was close enough not to matter, but I would have presented the more nuanced view, which I spelled out in comments.)
Here he took his knowledge of Eliezer Yudkowsky’s and Adam Frank’s views on religion and extrapolated them in ways that neither would approve of. (He originally called the characters Colonels Yudkowsky and Frank, then changed them to Colonels Y and F after this was pointed out.)
Here Yvain sees an ambiguous letter-to-the-editor from a woman with a plausible, non-stupid interpretation and then proceeds to characterize her as the worst possible example of the fallacy he was demonstrating. (Link is to my comment on that article, showing what’s wrong with his interpretation.)
I don’t mean this to be a general indictment of Yvain; he’s contributed excellent material to Less Wrong, has earned a heck of a lot more karma than me, and would truly be irreplaceable if he left. But, like everyone else, he has the occasional bad habit, and lots of red flags went up when I saw the claim I’ve just questioned.
And my point only required that she was aware of people seriously believing they found contradictions in holy texts and people holding evolution-related beliefs in contradiction of creationists accounts, both of which she deemed insufficient. That’s familiar enough for the point I made.
But there are lots of religious people who are aware of the existence of such atheists, yet who do not follow all the most stringent cultural practices of their religion. You know, like self-identified Jews who nevertheless think nothing of flipping a lightswitch on a Saturday.
But there are lots of religious people who are aware of the existence of such atheists, yet who do not follow all the most stringent cultural practices of their religion.
Right, but that predicate wasn’t the only one that applied here. This religionist:
-is adamant about spreader her views to the point she wishes to know what stops people from joining -is aware of the different arguments against and classifies them -most importantly, is in a theocracy of like-believers that gets government enforcement of its tenets
That’s quite different from a random Jew ignoring an orthodox sect’s bizarre prohibitions.
Even though the passage didn’t have the phrase “devout Muslim”, it can still be a reasonable inference. Someone this familiar with their faith and aware and disdainful of the specific arguments against it, has invested more time than most cereligionists and is more likely to be stringently following the rules.
I did; it’s just that the consideration didn’t end up favoring Yvain. I also factored in his past tendency to embellish facts.
This does not seem like an accurate reading of the post. “Aware and disdainful of the specific arguments against it”? The woman in the story is portrayed as unfamiliar with atheism and atheists, not familiar-yet-hostile. She doesn’t even attack the argument from biblical contradictions.
So I take it that you’ve been to Cairo or other modern middle-eastern cities, or read extensively about them? I find it hard to see how you could be so confident in your domain knowledge otherwise.
What past tendency? Do you have links?
First, the term was disdainful, not hostile. And my point only required that she was aware of people seriously believing they found contradictions in holy texts and people holding evolution-related beliefs in contradiction of creationists accounts, both of which she deemed insufficient. That’s familiar enough for the point I made.
Read.
Of course. I didn’t list them the first time around because I (and most well-adjusted people) don’t feel the need to list every piece of evidence influencing every belief they express, especially when it would come off as a “let’s list all of __′s past misdeeds!” party.
But since you ask, here you go:
In this article, it’s apparent he’s been made incompletely aware of factoids and takes licence to hype them up to the extreme without checking them, especially the All Sex is Rape line. (Yes, I though the attribution was close enough not to matter, but I would have presented the more nuanced view, which I spelled out in comments.)
Here he took his knowledge of Eliezer Yudkowsky’s and Adam Frank’s views on religion and extrapolated them in ways that neither would approve of. (He originally called the characters Colonels Yudkowsky and Frank, then changed them to Colonels Y and F after this was pointed out.)
Here Yvain sees an ambiguous letter-to-the-editor from a woman with a plausible, non-stupid interpretation and then proceeds to characterize her as the worst possible example of the fallacy he was demonstrating. (Link is to my comment on that article, showing what’s wrong with his interpretation.)
I don’t mean this to be a general indictment of Yvain; he’s contributed excellent material to Less Wrong, has earned a heck of a lot more karma than me, and would truly be irreplaceable if he left. But, like everyone else, he has the occasional bad habit, and lots of red flags went up when I saw the claim I’ve just questioned.
But there are lots of religious people who are aware of the existence of such atheists, yet who do not follow all the most stringent cultural practices of their religion. You know, like self-identified Jews who nevertheless think nothing of flipping a lightswitch on a Saturday.
Right, but that predicate wasn’t the only one that applied here. This religionist:
-is adamant about spreader her views to the point she wishes to know what stops people from joining
-is aware of the different arguments against and classifies them
-most importantly, is in a theocracy of like-believers that gets government enforcement of its tenets
That’s quite different from a random Jew ignoring an orthodox sect’s bizarre prohibitions.