I agree that desiring to hide traces is evidence of such a desire, but it’s simply not my motivation:
The primary reason I want comments at all are (a) to get valuable corrective feedback and discussion, and (b) as motivation and positive reinforcement to continue writing frequently. There are comments that provide negligible-to-negative amounts of (a) and even leaving a trace of which stands a serious chance of fucking with (b) when I scroll past in the future. These I would like to delete without trace.
Now I would like to have a discussion about whether a negative reaction to seeing even traces of the comments of trolls is a rational aversion to have, but I know I currently have it and would guess that most other writers do as well.
I agree that desiring to hide traces is evidence of such a desire, but it’s simply not my motivation
Irrelevant. Stated motivation is cheap talk, not reliable introspectively, let alone coming from someone else.
Or, in more detail:
1) Unchecked, this capability being misused will create echo chambers.
2) There is a social incentive to misuse it; lack of dissent increases perceived legitimacy and thus status.
3) Where social incentives to do a thing for personal benefit exist, basic social instincts push people to do that thing for personal benefit.
4) These instincts operate at a level below and before conscious verbalization.
5) The mind’s justifier will, if feasible, throw up more palatable reasons why you are taking the action.
6) So even if you believe yourself to be using an action for good reasons, if there is a social incentive to be misusing it, you are very likely misusing it a significant fraction of the time.
7) Even doing this a fraction of the time will create an echo chamber.
8) For good group epistemics, preventing the descent into echo chambers is of utmost importance.
9) Therefore no given reason can be an acceptable reason.
I think you are seriously missing the point of the concerns that PDV is (and that I am) raising, if you respond by saying “but I don’t plan to use traceless deletion for the bad reason you fear!”.
Do I really need to enumerate the reasons why this is so? I mean, I will if asked, but every time I see this sort of really very frustrating naïveté, I get a bit more pessimistic…
This seems to be missing the point of Alkjash’s comment, though. I don’t think Alkjash is missing the concerns you and PDV have.
PDV said “others can only assume that we wouldn’t like what we saw if the traces were public.” This sounded to me like PDV could only imagine one reason why someone might delete a comment with no trace. Alkjash provided another possible reason. (FYI, I can list more).
(if PDV was saying ’it’s strategically adviseable to assume the worst reason, that’s… plausible, and would lead me to respond differently.)
FYI I agree with most of your suggestion solutions, but think you’re only look at one set of costs and ignoring others.
(if PDV was saying ’it’s strategically adviseable to assume the worst reason, that’s… plausible, and would lead me to respond differently.)
Making it easier to get away with bad behavior is bad in itself, because it reduces trust and increases the bad behavior’s payoff, even if no bad behavior was occurring before. It’s also corrosive to any norm that exists against the bad behavior, because “everyone’s getting away with this except me” becomes a plausible hypothesis whether or not anyone actually is.
I interpret PDV’s comments as an attempt to implicitly call attention to these problems, but I think explicitly spelling them out would be more more likely to be well-received on this particular forum.
It is strategically necessary to assume that social incentives are the true reason, because social incentives disguise themselves as any acceptable reason, and the corrosive effect of social incentives is the Hamming Problem for group epistemics. (I went into more detail here.)
I don’t think Alkjash is missing the concerns you and PDV have.
Then his comments are simply non-responsive to what I and PDV have said, and make little to no sense as replies to either of our comments. I assumed (as I usually do) compliance with the maxim of relation.
FYI I agree with most of your suggestion solutions, but think you’re only look at one set of costs and ignoring others.
Indeed I am, and for good reason: the cost I speak of is one which utterly dwarfs all others.
PDV said “others can only assume that we wouldn’t like what we saw if the traces were public.” This sounded to me like PDV could only imagine one reason why someone might delete a comment with no trace. Alkjash provided another possible reason. (FYI, I can list more).
I think here I’m going to say “plausible deniability” and “appearance of impropriety” and hope that those keywords get my point across. If not, then I’m afraid I’ll have to bow out of this for now.
Indeed I am, and for good reason: the cost I speak of is one which utterly dwarfs all others.
This is a claim that requires justification, not bald assertion—especially in this kind of thread, where you are essentially implying that anyone who disagrees with you must be either stupid or malicious. Needless to say, this implication is not likely to make the conversation go anywhere positive. (In fact, this is a prime example of a comment that I might delete were it to show up on my personal blog—not because of its content, but because of the way in which that content is presented.)
Issues with tone aside, the quoted statement strongly suggests to me that you have not made a genuine effort to consider the other side of the argument. Not to sound rude, but I suspect that if you were to attempt an Ideological Turing Test of alkjash’s position, you would not in fact succeed at producing a response indistinguishable from the genuine article. In all charitability, this is likely due to differences of internal experience; I’m given to understand that some people are extremely sensitive to status-y language, while others seem blind to it entirely, and it seems likely to me (based on what I’ve seen of your posts) that you fall into the latter category. In no way does this obviate the existence or the needs of the former category, however, and I find your claim that said needs are “dwarfed” by the concerns most salient to you extremely irritating.
Footnote: Since feeling irritation is obviously not a good sign, I debated with myself for a while about whether to post this comment. I decided ultimately to do so, but I probably won’t be engaging further in this thread, so as to minimize the likelihood of it devolving into a demon thread. (It’s possible that it’s already too late, however.)
I agree that desiring to hide traces is evidence of such a desire, but it’s simply not my motivation:
The primary reason I want comments at all are (a) to get valuable corrective feedback and discussion, and (b) as motivation and positive reinforcement to continue writing frequently. There are comments that provide negligible-to-negative amounts of (a) and even leaving a trace of which stands a serious chance of fucking with (b) when I scroll past in the future. These I would like to delete without trace.
Now I would like to have a discussion about whether a negative reaction to seeing even traces of the comments of trolls is a rational aversion to have, but I know I currently have it and would guess that most other writers do as well.
Can’t you just use AdBlock to hide such comments from your browser?
I agree that desiring to hide traces is evidence of such a desire, but it’s simply not my motivation
Irrelevant. Stated motivation is cheap talk, not reliable introspectively, let alone coming from someone else.
Or, in more detail:
1) Unchecked, this capability being misused will create echo chambers.
2) There is a social incentive to misuse it; lack of dissent increases perceived legitimacy and thus status.
3) Where social incentives to do a thing for personal benefit exist, basic social instincts push people to do that thing for personal benefit.
4) These instincts operate at a level below and before conscious verbalization.
5) The mind’s justifier will, if feasible, throw up more palatable reasons why you are taking the action.
6) So even if you believe yourself to be using an action for good reasons, if there is a social incentive to be misusing it, you are very likely misusing it a significant fraction of the time.
7) Even doing this a fraction of the time will create an echo chamber.
8) For good group epistemics, preventing the descent into echo chambers is of utmost importance.
9) Therefore no given reason can be an acceptable reason.
10) Therefore this capability should not exist.
I think you are seriously missing the point of the concerns that PDV is (and that I am) raising, if you respond by saying “but I don’t plan to use traceless deletion for the bad reason you fear!”.
Do I really need to enumerate the reasons why this is so? I mean, I will if asked, but every time I see this sort of really very frustrating naïveté, I get a bit more pessimistic…
This seems to be missing the point of Alkjash’s comment, though. I don’t think Alkjash is missing the concerns you and PDV have.
PDV said “others can only assume that we wouldn’t like what we saw if the traces were public.” This sounded to me like PDV could only imagine one reason why someone might delete a comment with no trace. Alkjash provided another possible reason. (FYI, I can list more).
(if PDV was saying ’it’s strategically adviseable to assume the worst reason, that’s… plausible, and would lead me to respond differently.)
FYI I agree with most of your suggestion solutions, but think you’re only look at one set of costs and ignoring others.
Making it easier to get away with bad behavior is bad in itself, because it reduces trust and increases the bad behavior’s payoff, even if no bad behavior was occurring before. It’s also corrosive to any norm that exists against the bad behavior, because “everyone’s getting away with this except me” becomes a plausible hypothesis whether or not anyone actually is.
I interpret PDV’s comments as an attempt to implicitly call attention to these problems, but I think explicitly spelling them out would be more more likely to be well-received on this particular forum.
It is strategically necessary to assume that social incentives are the true reason, because social incentives disguise themselves as any acceptable reason, and the corrosive effect of social incentives is the Hamming Problem for group epistemics. (I went into more detail here.)
Then his comments are simply non-responsive to what I and PDV have said, and make little to no sense as replies to either of our comments. I assumed (as I usually do) compliance with the maxim of relation.
Indeed I am, and for good reason: the cost I speak of is one which utterly dwarfs all others.
I think here I’m going to say “plausible deniability” and “appearance of impropriety” and hope that those keywords get my point across. If not, then I’m afraid I’ll have to bow out of this for now.
This is a claim that requires justification, not bald assertion—especially in this kind of thread, where you are essentially implying that anyone who disagrees with you must be either stupid or malicious. Needless to say, this implication is not likely to make the conversation go anywhere positive. (In fact, this is a prime example of a comment that I might delete were it to show up on my personal blog—not because of its content, but because of the way in which that content is presented.)
Issues with tone aside, the quoted statement strongly suggests to me that you have not made a genuine effort to consider the other side of the argument. Not to sound rude, but I suspect that if you were to attempt an Ideological Turing Test of alkjash’s position, you would not in fact succeed at producing a response indistinguishable from the genuine article. In all charitability, this is likely due to differences of internal experience; I’m given to understand that some people are extremely sensitive to status-y language, while others seem blind to it entirely, and it seems likely to me (based on what I’ve seen of your posts) that you fall into the latter category. In no way does this obviate the existence or the needs of the former category, however, and I find your claim that said needs are “dwarfed” by the concerns most salient to you extremely irritating.
Footnote: Since feeling irritation is obviously not a good sign, I debated with myself for a while about whether to post this comment. I decided ultimately to do so, but I probably won’t be engaging further in this thread, so as to minimize the likelihood of it devolving into a demon thread. (It’s possible that it’s already too late, however.)